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Dear Neil,

The descendants of the Templars say different!

Did you know that the Ukrainian Kozak Hetman, Bohdan Khmelnitsky, had a Scots general fighting on his side against the Poles?

In his diary, the Hetman said, "We never could understand his native tongue, but he fought like a demon in battle and so we were happy to have him on our side!"

And we are happy to have you on our side too!

Alex

To All,
Interesting thread.
Just a side note. Icons of The "Holy Myrrhbearing Women" usually have the linens in this "shell-like" state with the angel sitting at the corner of the tomb.

Bill

Dear Stephanos;

I find this interesting and supportive.

I finally took out the Greek reference books tonight (I hate to do that because I am so slow at it) and examined a few lines from John.

John definitely said that Jesus was wrapped with the spices in customary Jewish fashion

Also � and here is the transliteration I came up with myself�

----begin transliteration---
Also facecloth which be upon/over head by-itself not with the wrappings lie - but separately fold into [its] place/location.
--end transliteration---

As you know - any one Greek word can be translated by several English words that may have a but different meaning - and I examined all of these several possibilities for each word to see if there were any other way this sentence could read - and there is not. Nothing else makes fitting sense in the context.

John said the facecloth lay not with the wrappings [plural] but was folded in its own location.

So definitely the wrappings were not the minimal ties around legs, feet, chest - but the full body wrappings. Since he tells that the soudarion was for the head - there is not doubt what it was.

Since John calls them �wrappings� [plural] this is not a one piece shroud like Turin. So we can not imagine that the spices were somehow in the folds of a large sheet (Turin) but actually in the wrappings (like they are supposed to be).

This definitely means that shroud of Turin crowd - who believe that it was the shroud that was over the body in the tomb - are wrong. The strips of linen wrapping were there and John does not mention a Turin like large shroud - making it that the Turin shroud WAS only used between the cross and the tomb.

It appears to me that the purpose of the face cloth was to cover the face of the deceased - while he was being prepared (wrapped).

So here is the scenario as you and I have hammered it out so far� including a few assumptions on my part� (to fill in gaps)�

1) Jesus is removed from the cross. A wooded pallet is there for the body. A large linen sheet (Turin) is laid on the pallet from the bottom (where the feet will go) to the top and the excess is gathered at the head of the pallet.

2) The body is then put on the pallet. Coins are placed on the eyes� the chin is tied. The limbs are straighten on the pallet and tied in places (around the knees at least). The arms are folded with writs at the abdomen - and the wrist are probably tied. The gathered shroud (at the head) is then brought up over the head down to the feet over the body - entirely coving it.

3) The body carried to the preparation place (maybe right to the cut ledge in the tomb). The shroud (Turin) is pulled back and the body is taken off the pallet and put on the cut ledge. That is the end of the role for the Turin shroud.

4) The body is laid out and a block is placed under the head or neck area. The face is now covered with the face cloth (coins are still over the eyes). From what I read it seems that the face-cloth is put there out of respect for the deceased - but let us be practical - it is also so that the people wrapping the body are not cheeped-out by the dead guy seeming to stare at them.

5) The body is then washed completely, and the face also (there go any blood marks on the body that could have been the marks on the Turin shroud - indicating that the Turin shroud had contact with the unwashed body). The facecloth is put back over the face.

6) The body is then wrapped - and while making the windings - the spices and myrrh goo is smeared into the wrapping as they go. I would guess that they start at the limbs - ending at the torso.

7) The facecloth is then removed - and folded - and placed out of the way. (I am guessing). The coins removed, the chin untied,and the head is wrapped down to the torso.

8) The torso is now wrapped. All linen ends are tucked under the torso wrapping.
--- end scenario---

Assumptions�
1) the face-cloth is removed before the head is wrapped - and it is not left on the head and wrapped over.
2) the Turin shroud was used only between the cross and tomb.
3) The Turin shroud was not place over the body after the body had been wrapped.
4) the face-cloth was folded by whom ever did the body wrapping.

5) items which had contact with the dead - were unclean - and so the face-cloth was left to be sealed in the tomb. This would seem to say (if true) that the Turin shroud would be left inside also (certainly soiled with body contact) this may be answered that the doorway was small (leaned down to peer in) and the body was taken off the palette outside - and hand carried in - meaning that the Turin shroud was never inside the tomb itself. It still lay on the palette as the men waited - and may have supposed to have been burned later.

6) the wrapping was done by women relatives or women friends - Joseph of Arameth and Nicodemus did not assist washing the body or wrapping. The men would have taken the pallet outside (with the shroud still on it?) and waited outside while the women prepared the body and wrapped it. When the women emerged - the men rolled the stone door into place.

7) I would guess that either Joseph or Nicodemus (Joseph brought the linen) kept the shroud as a relic of the holy man (Jesus).

8) I would guess that guards were already in place - to witness the rock being rolled into place - and they drove the iron bar through the rock to be a �lock�.

9) the face-cloth made its way to - where you have researched it. One of the women that came to the tomb Sunday moring - took it as a relic of the event.

10) the shell like body wrappings ???

That appear to be where we are right now.

Any comments? Any adjustments?

Perhaps the body wrapping was done outside the cave (in the daylight). And so it was the full 'mummy' that the men hand carried into the cave.

I just now found this.
http://www.emmerich1.com/THE_PASSION5.htm#CHAPTER%20LI

Emmerich seems to me to have been a virtual library of a mix of fact and legend which existed at her time. She had an uncanny intuition of subconcious for weaving them together. Her visions are part factual and part legends and part symbolic with spiritual meaning. I do consider reading her version of the embalming to be very worth while but I would not take all her details to be fact as we would consider fact to be. If you took all the facts and legends which existed at her time - and put them into a pail - and shook the pile - and then pulled out a woven tapestry - that would be Catherine Emmerich. She is a fantiastic 'window' into the mind of a pious Catholic of her times.

-ray

I find her site very interesting and informative, I read the Passion there before viewing the movie and felt that it helped greatly.

Ray your theory is well done & interesting.

james

It seems somewhere in the ball park. Stephanos kept it from going too far off track.

-ray

sorry double post.

Just happened across this in a Christian novel my wife is reading titled The Weeping Chamber :

"I looked at His burial place and saw all that remained were empty burial linens. A smile crossed my face as I noticed the wrap that had been used to cover Yeshua's face. The cloth had been folded in half, then folded in half again and left neatly on the stone floor beside the burial linens.
Standing in that weeping chamber, years after Yeshua had set aside His carpenter tools, I understood. And I began to fell an unfamiliar emotion. Joy.
The folded cloth was a simple method of communication, tradtional among carpenters, for most could not write. At the completion of a project, a carpenter took water from a bowl to wash the sawdust off his arms and face, dried himself, and folded the towel in the same way, leaving it behind so anyone arriving later would understand the same message yeshua had left for us in the empty tomb on that Sunday: It is finished."

Now of course this is from a fiction novel, but if the research on the meaning of folded towels for carpenters is correct, I think it is pretty neat.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Bro Deacon Lance,

Having been raised in a family of carpenters, and now being a carpentry trade subcontractor myself, I'm unfamiliar with that practice, but it does not mean that it was not a form of communication in Jesus' time (but if a carpenter could not tell that a project was done just by looking at it, no folded towel could help him. )

I know the novel is fiction, but the Lord had already communicated, "it is finished "(Gr. tetelestai ) from the cross (John 19:30).

One of the things that I have found mostly true regarding finding a more accurate meaning regarding many biblical things - is that when you are getting close - the meaning is many fold. Very resonant. Many reflections.

It is a English language habit to isolate one concrete meaning... and ignore all others... except for the art of poetry. Where secondary meaning is resonant.

As a rule of thumb in these older languages - all meanings must be valid while one meaning become primary - all secondary meanings will be in concert. This is especially fascinating in the Hebrew the meaning of the root (usual three letters) is so very strong.

So I too would not doubt the "carpenter" meaning of the folded cloth. It is a parallel with the Jewish tradition of folding the napkin after the meal to signify to the servants "I am finished" also.

Cheers.

Yes, the Greek word souderion also means face cloth or napkin.

"It is looking more and more to me as if John were saying that the bindings lay still wrapped - and the face-cloth sill folded (as if still over the head) in its unique place. In other words nothing was unwrapped - just no body anymore inside it.
"
Yes, the Origninal Greek meaning, "still wrapped up" indicates that no one disturbed the wrappings, and therefore there was only one way for Jesus to get out of the burial clothes.
John arrived first, but waited for Peter out of respect because Peter was older.

Actually
Mike, John waited for Peter not because he was older but because he was first among the apostles.
It was a deffering to the authority of Peter.
Stephanos I

My Dear Stephanos I:

I am so excited... Tuesday night... I have been invited to a small gathering to take place in a local Orthodox church... where a Dominican priest from Jeruslaum will come and discuss the many resurrection passages of the gospels. He is an expert in the Old Testament... and it seems he will relate these to the Old Testament portions.

I am told that this man even has habit of consulting and reading - clay tablets!

Just imagine! my excitement!

I do hope that I can corner him!! for a private chat.

The Lord be with you my dear Stephanos.

BTW - have you checked your private messages?

-ray

Yes, Ray I have checked my private messages but alas I am so busy pastorally with a congregation of 15,000 that I have not had that much time to answer that question. Patience and I will.

But here is another tought, could the folded napkin be in relation to the passover sacrifice in which the "lamb" was wrapped?
Just a thought.
Stephanos I

First - can't you just arbitrarily excummunicate 10,000 of them?

Secondly - I do not fully know what you mean - I have a hint there - but if you see a connection with the Passover lamb than I would believe there was. Further, if I can remember (so busy yesterday not much sleep) I shall make it priority to ask the Dominican his take on the napkin.

No problem, answer that other message - whenever. If the Lord takes the good early - and only picks the flowers when they are at peak bloom - then I shall be down here in the garden for many moons.

-ray

WOW! WOW! That's all I can say for all what I've read on this post. Thank you Ray K. & Stephanos I for such insightful observations and theories.

This is another treasure that's been unfolded out of the chest (meaning the Scriptures is a Treasure Chest and the Truth in it is like precious stones and treasures). The Sacred Scripture is a great blessing!

I always LOVE and enjoy learning new things especially when it comes to the bridge between the Old and New Testament. The study of Jewish traditions and custom is related to the Christian.

I was just flabbergasted to realize the meaning of two angels, representing the mystical Ark of Convenant in the tomb. GEESH!

Now, the whole time while you guys were speculating about the folding of the cloths. I was thinking it meant that the body was still folded (wrapped) neatly intact, meaning that the wrappings were left undisturbed. As oppose to the comments that He rose from the dead and unwrapped Himself and folded it.

Now, the face cloth, if it was first laid on the face before the wrapping or shroud, and it was seen taken outside of the wrappings (while the wrappings are still folded intact, undisturbed), I wonder if it's a sign from G-d that the impossible was made possible by Him, for with G-d, nothing is impossible. It would have been humanly impossible to take the face cloth out of the wrapping without disturbing the wrapping or the shroud.

Now, I'm not trying to defend the Shroud of Turin, although, I do believe in it. As opposed to the Orthodox claims that it's fake, I still believe that He would have imprinted an Image of Himself onto the shroud, even if the face cloth and wrappings were still on the body. He does the impossible. He wanted to mark a physical evidence that it was indeed CHRIST that rose from the dead. Why would He allow the face cloth prevent from the "impression" of His face onto the shroud? If He did, then His face won't be shown, and it could lead to 2,000 years of speculating WHO that person was, that's imprinted onto the Shroud? I believe He wanted to identify Himself as the Man who rose from the Dead and leave no room for any speculation or doubts.

I'm thinking that the shroud is the outside covering of the entire wrapped/covered body. As a cloth version of "coffin"?

Now, Let me ask you guys, you said that the shroud was between the body and the cross??? Can you explain? Was the cross there in the tomb also??? And if so, why? If the cross was there, where was it placed??? Onto the slab? Or on the floor? Or what? That's interesting....

OHHHH, I want to add something on this post, that I'm excited about:

When Jesus was wrapped up, I believe it would symbolically represent that He was bound by Death. The ALL-AWESEOME-MIGHTY G-d was bound by Death. If my speculation that the wrappings were intact are mistaken, that the clothes were indeed folded, it would represent that He trampled down death by Death, that He no longer is bound by Death.

Now, let's take a look at the Birth of Christ. He was also bound and wrapped. Just imagine, the All-Mighty G-d, the creator and ruler of the Universe, was bound by His human nature. That He humbled Himself into a human that doesn't have the powers. (He STILL has powers since He has both natures G-d and man). And after He was wrapped, He was laid in a stone manager.

Do you think that all of this (at the Birth of Christ) is a foreshadowing of His Death? The first time around, He's bound by human nature as well. The second time around He was wrapped, bound by Death. Now He overcame the human nature and Death. Meaning that, His human nature was GLORIFIED (as we all will someday at Resurrection). That the human body is mystical, like He walked through the walls, etc. The normal human body isn't capable of walking through the walls or anything like that. The human body is also not capable of "multiplying" Itself in Holy Communion (Holy Eucharist) for it is Real Human Body and Blood in the form of earthly bread (manna). (I believe there's a connection between the multiplying of Eucharist and the miracle of mulitplying the bread/fish that He fed 3,000 people---5,000 people). Also, the fact the body is glorified, He beat Death as well. So He took His human nature to the next level.

Amazing, isn't it?

Thoughts on the connection between the wrappings/bounding at the Birth and Death of Christ? Very interesting connection.

I guess, as people would say, that we would leave the world in the same manner as the way we have left it. (like old people can become like babies, that need physical care, lose hair, teeth, etc.)???

Again, many thanks for this amazing post!!! I am still flabbergasted about this two angels deal in this. It's powerful! The holy Altar in the Churches, is indeed the mystical Ark of the Convanent. Of which the birth and death of Christ do indeed take place on the Altar, (also is made of stone as the manager and slab of the tomb). As my priest used to say, the Altar is the Throne of G-d, of which is surrounded by angels, incensing giving glory to G-d with holy fragrance and holy oblation.

G-d bless,

SPDundas
Flabbergasted Deaf Byzantine