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Brothers and Sisters:

As a funeral director, I have some questions after reading your many posts on this thread and a couple comments.

The face cloth, by whatever name you put on it from other languages, was a rather common custom for burial, even among Christians, even into the 20th century. I have had colleagues who told me that it was common to order a linen or silk cloth to cover the face of the dead before closing the casket. In some areas it seems to have been a common practice in the United States until the mid-1960s.

I have to wonder about some of the timetables presented. I have been witness to the Jewish burial ritual and can tell you that it takes an hour or more for the prayers and the washing to be done properly. To add oils and then outer wrappings would have taken longer. But I thought that the Gospels tell us that Jesus was hurriedly placed in the tomb because the people putting Him there wanted to avoid ritual impurity so that they could eat the Passover supper. Ritual impurity definitely comes from touching a dead man, according to the Old Testament Law. The dressing of the body, together with the placing of the prayer shawl, comes before any wrapping as I have seen it.

As for a stench between the time of the taking down from the Cross and the early morning finding of the open Tomb, I find it something that would probably be unlikely. A strong, well-muscled man would have gone into rigor mortis rather slowly after death and that rigor would probably still have been partly present early Sunday morning. It is only after rigor passes that the stench of decomposition starts. Rigor would probably have been delayed somewhat, too, by the cool or cold temperature of the stone cave Tomb. Could it be that they simply put all the spices into the Tomb, without applying them to the Body, and hoped to come back later--Sunday morning--to finish?

Another question comes to mind here. Trying to piece together the whole story from Scripture seems to be a rather Protestant approach. What does Tradition say about this whole span of time? Scripture itself tells us that not everything that Jesus said or did is contained in the Scripture, but what is written is written so that we might believe.

I don't pretend to have the scholarly experience that seems to be demonstrated here or that so many have demonstrated when they have spent time researching this area, but some very important practical elements seem to have been overlooked.
I am fascinated by your posts, however.

In Christ,

BOB

Hi, click the link below of an image of a Burial Shroud that people buy for their funerals. I plan on buying one soon.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Burial Shroud [istok.net]

SPDundas,
Here is a very interesting thought about being wrapped in swaddling clothes, he was born to die for the sins of the world. They offered him myrrh for his burial at his birth. But also the fact that Christ (in Luke) was laid in a feeding trough. He is the true bread who has come down from heaven to feed us with his body and blood and fill us with the power of his resurrection.
Stephanos I

I almost missed your post.

Thanks for commenting.

>The face cloth, by whatever name you put on it from other languages,
>was a rather common custom for burial, even among Christians, even into the 20th century.

From what I have read - it seems that this particular use of the face napkin had a two fold purpose. The face was covered during body preparation out of respect for the dead ( is how Jewish sources put it) but I expect it was also easier for the women involved who prepared the body. From what I understand - back in that time a professional seldom involved. There were some - and they were all females.

Males did not prepare the body except to carry it. Those who did the preparation where the relatives of the deceased� mother, wife, sisters, niece, close female friends. It was the task of the women of the family of the deceased. If they needed help or if there were no female relatives - professional women did the task. So only if a professional was present - would that professional person have no real emotional connection to the deceased. So the face was covered out of respect - but I imagine it also made it emotionally easier for the women relatives involved. The face covering was removed at the final - and then the head wrapped. The napkin was not including in the final wrappings.

>I have to wonder about some of the timetables presented.

Apparently the body was removed about 3:30PM and the burial place was within short walking distance. According to Jewish law the body need be buried (all required rites preformed) before the next day. The Jewish day begins at sun down. And from what I read sundown would have been around 6:00PM at that season - so they had approximately 2 and a half hours to perform everything (including transport). If we say that the washing and wrapping with prayers took about and hour - we must also include time for the mother to weep over her son, etc� and I would guess that even 2 and a half hours was far too short and rushed for those involved. How long are wakes today - were we say good bye to the loved one?

>As for a stench between the time of the taking down from the Cross and the early morning
I believe you.

The myrrh had to be applied to the body with the wrappings. It was smeared on the wrappings as they wrapped. A kind of glue - that hardened. I believe that the extra spices were left out (other spices were laid into the wrappings during a normal preparation - spices donated as gifts from friends) and only the essential myrrh was used. I believe Mary was going to bring the donated spices after the Sabbath. This would be like bringing flowers (sent by friends) to lay with the body.

> Trying to piece together the whole story from Scripture seems to be a rather Protestant approach.
Mine was an approach which believes that scriptures are true - and - when approached as true - have support in the real world. My sources included Cathoilc, Orthodox, Protestant and Jewish sources of research. Yes... I found the Protestant resoureces very comprehensive.

> but some very important practical elements seem to have been overlooked.

Feel free to add these elements to our meditation on the resurrection.

-ray

RayK:

I wonder when the changeover between what you describe as the women members of the family having the task of preparing the dead in Jewish practice turned to the strict separation of that practice today.

The group that comes to do the washing and enshrouding is strictly segregated: women do women and men do men.

Some of the other things that make me wonder are the act of washing itself. It takes some ritual time to wash a body that is relatively clean--meaning that it has no blood on it. But removing dried blood and working around the myriad of tearings done by the scourging would have taken a great deal of time. The Holy Brotherhood or Holy Sisterhood that the Jewish people send to do the washing are very scrupulous. They leave not a single spot on a body when they are finished and they do it out of great respect.

Another thing that makes me wonder is the fact that the people who do the washing and enshrouding are very careful that this is done away from the casket--and I would imagine from a tomb--so that the end result is separated from the impurity that existed before the ceremony of the washing took place.

Just some more thoughts.

In Christ,

BOB

That I don't know and apparently that may not be the case across the board as, in the weeks I was researching this, there was a fine documentary on TV about the modern professional women who prepare the body. I do not know what �sect� they were - they wore normal cloths. The body lay on a stainless steel table. I regret that I tuned in while it was already on (so I only saw half and hour of so) and it was not on my mind to notice any face covering (it was covered but how I did not notice - I was concentrating on the other aspects).

So I guess the question would be "when did it move away from the family doing it"? And that would probably hinge on when they dispersed into other cultures and had the money to purchase professional services. ... 12th century???

Anyway - these on TV were professional women - the documentary explained - at least three maybe four of them (I was not counting). They took turns doing the work as another said the prayers for that action. So they moved right along. Sometimes they all stopped and said the ritual portion together. And they were preparing - a male. To be sure - it was a male mannequin (very life like and apparently made for training purposes). On a stainless steel table. It very well could have been that they used the male dummy and did not mention that men do men and women do women - but they said nothing about it and all went along as if it was normal for women to do men.

While professionals are used today - in Christ�s time - professionals were only used by the wealth. There was a name for them (which I have forgotten) but they were also often hired by the family to assist the family as family women did it. There being no middle class (very wealth, poor, and dirt poor) - Mary and Jesus were dirt poor.

I could well believe that in some sects - they make the difference (men do men etc..). Or it could be that I am wrong in my assumptions that, at the time of Christ, only the women did it. That is what I have read in several sources - but sources themselves can be wrong.

As you say �the people who do the washing and enshrouding are very careful that this is done away from the casket� - and the picture that I had come to was the that Jesus body was washed outside the tomb (the washing water gathered into leather bottles and probably poured out on the floor of the tomb - as you are aware they gather every portion of the copse to be buried with it). This reminds me of when an Israel solider is killed in the Palestinian areas - they actually send in other soldiers to gather every hair and finger nail every bit of flesh and blood). They risk their lives to do that.

What you say is more probable than the body being carried inside and washed on the cut ledge. So the body was washed just outside of the tomb - probably while it lay on the transport cart. I imagine there was a building on the cemetery grounds where this is ordinarily done for the poor and criminals who would not have been prepared by family at home. But there was not time to do it at home (or a friends home) so the body was taken directly to the cemetery - and directly to the tomb - and the preparation building on the grounds was not used. This is my guess.

So it seems to me that the body was washed and wrapped between 4:30PM and 5:30PM - and the men then carried it (from the cart on which it was prepared) into the tomb. Tomb openings were low overhead and tight fit - so I can not imagine men struggling with a bloody body all limp (or stiff!) through the opening. That would have been hard to do and got you all messed also. So I imagine the body all wrapped (easier to carry - and clean) which could be carried in.

Of the men present there Joseph of Arameth and Nicodemus and at least two male(?) servants. One sent by Nicodemus to fetch the purchase the linen and the other sent by Joseph to purchase myrrh and aloes. (I may have gotten who brought what mixed up). So I am assuming 4 men and that Nicodemus and Joseph (officials and wealth) were both still dressed in fine vestments - and that - while they may have assisted to bring the body down from the cross - their position and rank was such that they themselves did not wash the body. If the body was washed by males it would have been the male servants. But again, old sources give it that it was the task of the family - and the women.

I sincerely doubt that the myrrh and aloes was 100 pounds - that is far too much for one body. That would be hard for one man to carry. It must have been more like 30 pounds) a paint pail size(??).

John may have helped the women (I do not believe there was any �ban� on men doing it). But at the same time I would imagine that he stayed near Mary - with mind to be with her and comfort her.

As we all are aware - the mother is usually the person that is the most emotional - and so it seems to me it would have been the other women who did most of the work - and Mary only approached the body occasionally while leaning on John.

I believe that traditionally - there were three women there. Mary (his mother), Mary of Magdalene (the ex-prostitute) and Mary the sister of Martha (the sister of Lazarus).

The aloes and myrrh were resins with oils mixed in. So it was like a lite paste. I imagine if was smeared on the skin before the first wrap winding (so the winding stuck to the skin) and then more was smeared as each winding was made. Certainly 100 lbs is too much for that purpose.

>is done away from the casket--and I would imagine from a tomb--
>so that the end result is separated from the impurity that existed
> before the ceremony of the washing took place.

So I would agree with you here. The washing was done outside of the tomb.

I wish I had more time so I could research more.

-ray

RayK:

In my own experience, there is a volunteer committee in each synagogue or temple, whether of Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform Jews. The information I have is listening to the people doing this sacred duty themselves. I've been told that this is a tradition that goes back far into their history. I don't have the text at my fingertips, but I believe that there is something in the Pentateuch about what constitutes being ritually unclean. A woman who would touch a man who is not her husband would be ritually unclean and vice versa.

What might have been termed "professional" on the documentary might have been the TV people who are only partially aware of Jewish custom. (That wouldn't surprise me since they usually get lots of things wrong when they describe Christians of various stripes and their practices when they report or do documentaries.) In each synagogue or temple, as I mentioned, there is a group called the Chevrah Kadisha (check my transliterated spelling). It translates as "Holy Brotherhood" (or Sisterhood). These people, all of demonstrated faith and upstanding in the community, are assigned the task of giving the bodies of the dead proper preparation for burial. It is seen as a sacred duty and one that not everyone may do. Usually the rabbi is the one who approves the people who do this work.

As for the face cloth, we have a remnant of that custom in the Byzantine Burial Service for a priest. The face covering symbolizes the fact that the departed has closed his eyes to this world and opened them to the world to come. When this custom was ordinary in funeral service in this country, it was customary to place the cloth over the facial features just before the casket was closed for the last time.

Do you think it possible that Our Lord was quickly wrapped in the Shroud of Turin (or similar cloth) and the spices just set in the Tomb with the idea that "we'll all get home and get ourselves ritually purified so we can eat the Passover" with the intention that after the Sabbath they would go back and do it right?

BOB

It is a Hebrew custom to fold a napking after a meal

if you had a guest for dinner and he crumpled up his napkin and left it on the plate it meant the meal was good and he would eat there again

if a guest ate dinner and left his napkin neatly folded it meant he did not like the meal and would not eat there again

blessings

I saw a thing on TV the other day which gave the distance form the cross to the tomb as only yeards - 39 yrds I think.

If that was the case I do not see them wrapping his body in the one pcs schourd fro the trip there - and now I wonder - which was used.

I dunno.

-ray