www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization ByzanTEEN Totally Old Church Slavonic Liturgies?

Christos Voskrese!
Nathan, i guess for me since my family came from the old country and helped start the church in Joliet i feel more strongly about the Old Slavonic liturgy becuase it is part of my heritage. I'm almost 1/2 of Slavic descent so maybe that is why i feel more closely realted to the Slavonic liturgy. i can understand how people not familiar with it may be uncomfortable but now a days we are lucky to get one song in Slavonic every Sunday and i hardly think it is worth it for people who don't understand it to complain about it. i don't see why they complain because A.)in almost every case the english is on the other side of the page or B.) we sing the English version first. in any case i think it is just plain unfair that people complain about one song a week. becuase that is what it seems like it has come to.
-Katie

As one who took a grad level OCS class to help with Slavonic, learned modern Slovak for the BC Church (three full academic years and two summers in Slovaki), cantored Church Slavonic Divine Liturgies in seminary, read the epistle in Slavonic at Uniontown (from a Slavonic Apostol, not latinica), who travelled to Europe to learn more about his church on various ocasions, who spent his own money to do so and has kept studying Slavonic whenever it has been possible, I am not dismissing it.

If you can say all of the above about yourself, please go ahead. If not, say something useful.

You dismissed the need for Spanish language liturgy. Obviously you have not been close to someone isolated from his/her language group. If you had lived it you would not talk this way.

Tony

Christ is Risen!

Tim, Tony, why do you two fight? What point is there in it? What profit? "Vanity is all things" is right indeed! C'mon, you two, make up now please, either that or take your argument OFF the thread. This is an argument I'd expect between seven year olds, not almost fully grown men. Capish? Good. And Katie, I understand your ties, and I do like Slavokian, I usually like singing it, so I agree with you there.

Dear-in-Christ Nathan,

Indeed, He is risen!

Right this does not belong here.

Thank you for "almost fully grown." I will be 37 in a few months and I am happy that I am not fully grown.

Tony

Jeepers. Do me a favor, in every posting where I used the word Spanish or Hispanic, substitute the word Italian.

I didn't start the analogy, I was just continuing a thread. This was never about Spanish language religious services, the issue was raised just as an example of using another language in a service. It was part of a conversation about keeping tradition alive, not about your Spanish-speaking grandmother or even my Rusyn-speaking father.

I apologize for this silly tangent that has nothing to do with a discussion about the possibility a once-a-year Church Slavonic liturgy for assimilated descendants of the folks who brought the Byzantine Catholic Church to America.

I'm leaving the ByzanTEEN forum to the ByzanTEENs.

Over and out.

--tim

Christ is Risen!

Thank you so much, Tony, for declining. Yes, 37 is ALMOST grown up. As for you, Tim, you are more than welcome to hang around, just don't act like you need to rip people's throats out. Any more comments?

Gee does that mean there's hope that I'll grow some more too? Hope so!!

Sharon
(who still climbs on kitchen counters when necessary at 43)

How does one say "Mass" in Old Slavonic?

Christ is risen!

According to the glossary from a Pitt OCS class in '00 (that I took) and according to the last texts I have seen for the Croatians using Slavonic (that was published in Prague in 1922) it is m�a as one finds in the modern Slav languages. Although the variant misa would be obviously understood.

The Kiev and Friesing Fragments both likely contain what you are looking for.

Tony

Joe,

XB!

I didn't really have time to look much into this...but I did anyway. There seem to be two words, one used by Westerners (RCs) and one by Easterners. The Westerners preferred words deriving from Latin missa. Hence, in Western and South Slav languages where the majority is RC (and by assimilation from Polish apparently into western Ukrainian) they use a Slavicized form of missa for RC Mass.

D'jachenko gives Ob'idnja as a synonym for Liturgy. This is the word used in modern Russian for RC Mass (обедня).

Again looking at any of the historic Glagolitic texts (mostly fragments) that are Western Rite, you could probably find more.

I'm glad I looked into this. Thanks for the great question!

Tony

English-speakers of any age group who are interested in Church-Slavonic would do well to study the Grammar of Church-Slavonic published (in English translation) by Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville.
Khristos Voskrese!
Incognitus

Tony,

Thank you, sir. So, what does one say to those who express their preference for using Old Slavonic by using Latin terms? If they were consistent, wouldn't they use Old Slavonic terms?

I hope your studies are going fine.

Joe

Joe,

Christ is risen!

If I have understood the question you mean BCs who say they want "Mass in Slavonic." It is unfortunate that many older BCs still use the term mass. It is what they were taught. It was commonly used then and still is in some EC circles. No matter how much some on this boared wish to think otherwise, there are BC parishes where the priest and parishioners refer to the Divine Liturgy as Mass. That is simply reality. Is it wrong for them to use mass? Yes. But wrong does not blot out reality.

It is in my opinion an unfortunate consequence of latinization. It should be pointed out that in literature of the same period (early to mid 20th c.) mass is the acceptable term among many academics. I have even heard Orthodox say "mass" to mean "Divine Liturgy."

There is even some confusion regarding language. I have heard people refer to the historic liturgical language of the Slav Orthodox, wich is Slavonic, as Russian and Slovak. I was once told a certain cantor sang the "Russian Mass" very beautifully. A life-long BC told me this about another life-long BC who was/is a cantor.

In the big picture, I think this will mostly correct itself. For me it is not a big deal. But it doesn't hurt to talk about it.

Tony

Tony,

I guess it just goes to show how ecclectic language can be, especially English. I like to study etymology and the choice of words people use. Like accents and dialects, it betrays their origins and/or upbringing. A little bell is rung when someone states they prefer the OLD SLAVONIC in the Liturgy, but use LATIN terms.

Of course, this is not more important than other issues, but word choice is very interesting nonetheless.

In my own genealogical studies, the history of the surname is very interesting. Every one of my German ancestors had their names changed (read: Anglicized) by port authorities, census takers, and pastors documenting things in church registries. But most of my ancestors were illiterate, so they didn't know what was correct. But this is getting off the topic of why some people prefer the Old Slavonic Mass.

I am contemplating purchasing the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language because it demonstrates how it evolved over centuries. I would like to read it over the summer - as well as a number of other fine books. What do you recommend for reading regarding word choices? In light of the current 'restoration' in the Ruthenian Church, many eparchies have gone back to using Greek terms (i.e., presbyters, syncellus, proto-, etc.), thus by-passing later Old Slavonic terms. What accounts for this?

Joe

Joe,

XB!

Well, a little bell used to be rung when the Words of Institution were said in Slavonic in the Byzantine Mass! :p

My ancestors on my dad's side as well suffered a change in spelling in the surname and there was no change of language. Merely poor education or illiteracy, or carelessness can account for it.

I recommend reading more of the Slavonic texts themselves. I find that most of the Greek terms are preserved in the Slavonic texts. I find protojerej, protopresvyter, presvyter and synkell in D'jachenko. Just off the top of my head I think the Russian and Rome books use these terms. It is like liturgical terms, tropar' kondak, irmos, etc. Slavonic just took them in and made them more familiar sounding (and usually shortened them).

If "mass" was used because it made life a little simpler, most likely the same thing happened with the rest of the language used to talk about Church life.

Tony