www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization ByzanTEEN this forum is really, really quiet

Dear Diak and Ilya,

To even be among such liturgists of our Church simply gives me goose-pimples all over!

I think that the service of Panahia practiced in our families would help to strengthen all what you are talking about, liturgy beginning at home, the prosphora etc.

My grandfather who was a priest and his presbytera would take a whole day to bake prosphora.

I would help and one knew it was a sacred time.

In addition to missing them, I miss the time I spent with them in this activity.

Alex

Alex, sorry for my inattentiveness, but you asked about the Old Rite prosphora stamp. These are very different from the Greek-style that is in use with most parishes, which has the equilateral Greek cross with IC XC NI KA in the four corners.

The Old Rite stamp has the inscription in Slavonic "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" around the outside border of the stamp, with an Old Believer style cross (also similar to that seen on the habits of monks/nuns of the Great Schema) inside at the center of the stamp with the instruments of the Passion (lance and sponge) on either side of the central cross, etc.

Dear Ilya,

Thanks for your wisdom. You are right about waiting these guys out. Things have to change, and it seems to me that they can only change in the direction we want because the other direction has been tried and found wanting, and is clearly not meeting the needs of people today.

I`m just reading Schmemann`s book on the Eucharist presently, and he proposes two things which are germane to our discussion here. First, he maintains that the rite of proskomedia should be resurrected as a public part of the liturgy, rather than something rushed through in a whispered, hasty fashion, so that the people can come to appreciate the depth of richness in the prayers and actions. Second, he argues that we need to get back to the individual offering of a prosphora for the living and the dead, and so, in both instances, recover a fuller sense of sacrifice as constitutive of the Christian`s life.

What do people think about that?

And on an unrelated note, I`ve been wondering lately about liturgical colour schemes. My understanding is that there are only two categories-bright and dark vestments. In most of our parishes, for the Great Fast and funerals I`ve seen dark red (ie., red with a lot of black threaded in) being used, but are there other options? I only ask because I was procrastinating the other day on Istok and they have some rather fabulous looking highbacks in a most excellent shade of purple (which has always been my favourite colour)�.


Adam

Adam, black is actually a Latinized color borrowed from "high requiems".

You are correct, there are only two color schemes, bright and dark. Red and purple are equally appropriate as "dark". Even amongst the Orthodox they are getting away from using black which was a common Greek and later Russian borrowing from the Latins.

Particular colors (white for Pascha, green for Pentecost, etc.) have come into practice for certain great feast days but really these are all days of "bright" vestments and the particular colors are more recent variants.

I'm more of a red type-guy myself for days of dark vestments (I think gold thread and galloon looks nicer against red than purple but without any black) but my oldest son does not agree as like you he's in the purple camp.

Speaking about the proskomidia, the gifts were originally prepared by the deacons in the diakonikon from the gifts brought by the people. Thus the "Great Entrance" was much more of a real entrance procession from the diakonikon which was a separate room or building with the gifts.

I have a priest friend who moved his proskomidia table out into the center of the nave along the north wall and many people will gather around while he is celebrating the Prothesis. The people can walk right up and offer their commemorative prosphora which are taken by a server or the deacon.

I think the point is valid about waiting it out with priests unwilling to follow the proper liturgical prescriptions and traditions of the Church. Believe me (unfortunately speaking from experience) verbal or written exchanges only go so far and can create lifetime grudges and ruined relationships with the hierarchy. Prayer, charity, and searching out a sympathetic bishop and parish where possible form a much more proactive approach.

Far be it for me to poo-poo anybody younger than I for having an interest in such things. Once upon a time I did too. (Alas, no longer.) You all are to be commended for your devotion and love for your Church.

But is it any wonder that this forum is almost totally quiet? Most of the Byzantine Catholic teens who might look in this forum have absolutely *NO* idea what any of you are talking about. Sad but true.

Fellows,

As for vestment colours, I agree with you but I also think the more varierty the better. Personally I like black for lent and funerals. It conveys a very somber message and creates the right type of atmosphere, this is one westernization that i am in favour of. I do not like red during lent. Purple is probably most appropriate. I thought that red for the slavs was a colour of joy and triumph, which is why it is worn on the 3rd sunday of lent for the veneration of the cross and why russian wear it at Pascha (which is interensting because one of the canons for the 3rd sunday of lent is "O day of Ressurection...).

ilya

I was under the impression that black as a liturgical color was adopted by the "Russians" (whether that means Muscovites, Ukrainians, Rusyns, I'm not positive) first; apart from a few photographs, I've never seen Greeks wear black vestments. The Greeks generally seem to have retained the "light/dark" color scheme (although there are some exceptions!), so if they have black, it is not part of a defined color scheme. Overall, one could say the idea of a specific color scheme is a "Latinization", but one could also say it is an organic development with the availability of dyes, colored brocades, etc. Personally, I am a big fan of a liturgical color scheme, including nice black vestments, but I would not view it as a straight jacket. Anyway, I digress...

Red is an interesting color because it can either be viewed as "light" or "dark". Recall that many Greeks often wear red on Pascha, and the Muscovite liturgical usage seems to be white for Paschal Matins and red for the Paschal Liturgy. Before Vespers this past Saturday, my priest asked me what color he should wear. We wear purple on the weekdays of the Great Fast, so he wondered if he should wear gold, or what. We got talking about the light/dark scheme, the color scheme, etc. In my mental ustav, a good "rule of thumb" during fasts is that one would wear a lighter color (in a liturgical color scheme, one color lighter) on Sundays. Many Russians wear black on weekdays of the Great Fast, and purple on Sundays. The older Ruthenian usage was purple on weekdays, red on Sundays. If you wear red on weekdays, wear gold on Sundays. In the end, my priest wore red. Our red vestments are rather bright anyway, so it's all good.

Having ranted thusly, I've gotta agree with Lemko: while some of us, including this 20 year old from PA, get into all these ecclesiastical leaves, the majority of people and youth need and desire the fruit of faith. Think of the fig tree! Sometimes we just have to admit that not everybody in the church was reading liturgical history at 15 or something like that. And just because they aren't into the kitsch doesn't mean they're bad or inferior. They might be able to appreciate nice liturgy, especially in the Byzantine tradition, but most of these details we fret over are inconsequential to them.

In conclusion, I like colors.

Back to my midterm!

-Dave

I agree that the color contrast and variation in vestments can be very nice. I like fabrics with crosses or other decoration of different color than the base material. It is nice to change things up and occasionally wear a red orarion over the gold stikharion or green orarion over gold, etc. But that is a wonderful thing about the economia and flexibility of the Byzantine tradition. The color groups are only general and there are a myriad of local variations.

It is interesting that in the Nastol'naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia the option of purple or dark red is given for feasts of the Holy Cross. Palm Sunday is given as a "green" day like Pentecost. There is also a distinction in red between "blood red" or darker red/crimson and "krasnyi" which is a brigher red which was used ("in some places" according to the text) for the vigils of Pascha and the Nativity in the Flesh. While I love bright red there is nothing like the brilliant white of Pascha.

But even in this regard the Nastol'naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia only gives general color groups and admits there are multiple local variations.

The Ukrainian and Carpatho-Ruthenian churches seem to have more generally followed the Greek usage and kept red as a "dark" color and not specifically differentiated between shades of red, hence the predominance of red as "the" Lenten, funeral, and Holy Cross color.

I was at a Great and Holy Friday at a Serbian parish once several years ago where the priest had black vestments with some gold thread. I have to admit it was very striking.

It is my understanding that in the Russian church black was only introduced with the funeral of Peter the II in 1821 and became common for funerals and some portions of Lent thereafter.

Speaking of black vestments, it is interesting that Bishop Lazar Puhalo actually preached that black vestments are "anti-Orthodox". The OCA seems to have generally gotten away from using black in the US.

If you want to see color, contrast and variation try the pink and gold of the Ethiopians with big flowers embroidered, along with those brightly colored umbrellas...

Here is Bishop Lazar's statement on black:
http://www.new-ostrog.org/blackvestments.html

While the OCA has gotten away from black for funerals and memorial services, I believe that black is still quite common for Great Friday and such.

Color significance always intrigues me, since it really is a cultural issue. I found out the other day that, in Chinese culture, red is the color of gladness and is worn for weddings. In ancient Egypt, black was the color of life, and white was the color of death. Why? Black is the color of the silt from the Nile flooding, and white is the color of the desert sand.

-Dave

You are correct about Chinese culture, Chtec. At a wedding of Chinese members of St. Mary's Antiochian Orthodox Church in Cambridge, MA, the clergy wore red vestments, and the bride wore traditional red Chinese wedding garments.

OrthodoxEast

Chtec<<While the OCA has gotten away from black for funerals and memorial services, I believe that black is still quite common for Great Friday and such.>>

This is so in many places, but not universal. In some OCA parishes black vestments are never worn, not even on Great and Holy Friday--purple is worn instead.

In my present OCA parish, black vestments with silver thread interwoven is worn by clergy for the Presanctified Liturgies of Wednesday and Friday evenings and for the services on Great and Holy Friday, but gold is worn for funerals, even on Lenten weekdays. On Saturdays and Sundays of Great Lent, purple is worn, even for Soul Saturday Divine Liturgies and Panikhidas; blue is worn for the Feast of the Annunciation; white for Lazarus Saturday, and gold for Palm Sunday.

OrthodoxEast

[QUOTE In ancient Egypt, black was the color of life, and white was the color of death. Why? Black is the color of the silt from the Nile flooding, and white is the color of the desert sand. [/QUOTE]


Dear Chtec:

Considering the Semitic origins of Christianity, it is safe to assume that we received black as a mourning colour from ancient Egypt.

Throughout the world it is white which is regarded as the colour of death and not black, even the ancient Romans used white.

As to the usage of dark colour, it is my belief that the colour tone originally used as black was in actuality a very deep purple.

Anyone familiar with old cassocks will know exactly what I mean.

It is too bad that such a fine and dignified colour should have come to mean something morose.

Latinism be Dammed, there is nothing like a fine set of black vestments for sheer beauty.


defreitas

Actually, I said the opposite: the ancient Egyptian color of death was white (the color of the desert sands) and the color of life was black (the color of the silt from the Nile flooding which was needed for the growing of crops).

And I have to agree: there's nothing like a nice set of black vestments.

-Dave

Dear Chtec:

We misunderstand each other, the colour of mourning was black for Egypt and this represented life and not death.

Black was the colour of the resurrection of the body, which the Egyptians so believed in that they made an industry out of preserving their dead.

In the tombs of the Pharos were placed life-sized figures of the deceased.

These figures had skin which was painted black.

The land of Egypt received a yearly rebirth though the black silt of the Nile, so too would these figures come to life through the same life-giving colour.

The Ka or Soul would inhabit the figure and live again to enjoy all the aspects of its former earthly existence.


White = death (the sand, bleached bones)

Black = life (the rich mud of the earth)


Do we agree?


defreitas

Yup.