www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization ByzanTEEN Straw Poll

Here's a straw poll you can fill out to give a completely unscientific sample on the question of Youth and Liturgy. You should be an Eastern Christian to answer this.

1) Are you in general a fan of shortened, simplified liturgies? YES or NO?

2) Would you say the youth of today prefer reverence and mystery in liturgy, or feel-good entertainment approaches?

3) Do you prefer that Eastern liturgies be fully Eastern, or is it acceptable for them to be hybrids, incorporating aspects from other traditions (a.k.a. Latinisms)?

4) What is a valid excuse for ever shortening liturgies? Are there any excuses?

5) Do you think it a stereotype from older people that youth of today want short liturgies with popular or rock music?

6) What was the best liturgy you ever attended and why?

1. Sometimes they are needed but I personally like them better longer so no.

2. Sounds like if you answer yes to the second part, than you should be ashamed. Question worded poorly. I think a mixture of the "feel good" style worship can be very reverant and spiritually rewarding. Mystery in the Liturgy should be taught, like what is going on now and why does the priest wave that during the creed etc.

3. Fully Eastern because if it has it's latinizisms in it, then it takes away from the pure holiness and beauty St. Volodymyr's envoys so passionatly described in 988.

4. Another liturgy has to follow that Sunday. Priest is in poor health. My pastor has diabetes so bad that drinking of the wine (Blood) during Liturgy throws his blood sugar off big time so much so he can hardly walk. He immediatly goes to his house to take insulin shots. So it can also depend on the age and health of the priest(s).

5. No, not in Eastern churches. In most Eastern churches I have visited (especially Ukrainian), I am one of the youngest in church and usally the only teen. only exceptions were in Ukraine and Sts. Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago. It's a big deal in my parish when teens or kids come. You will never find a rock band Liturgy in an Eastern church so I don't understand why this is asked.

6. I have 2 (sorry but it's a tie!!)

One is the Papal Divine Liturgy in Kyiv, Ukraine. The Protodeacon's voice was outof this world and the choir and the whole was the Liturgy was done was just fantastic. I think it's the most Eastern one I have been to. It was out of this world. (plus we were in the 3rd row and had benches )

The other one is the funeral of my close close friend and mentor, Fr. Ihor Miroshchenko. The funeral was celebrated by Archbishop Antony and seven clergy. It was almost 4 hours. Between the choir and being a acolyte, It was not only moving but a very spiritual expierence. I think the Ukrainian Orthodox do one heck of a Liturgy, plus Archbishop Antony has a real good voice and is a holy man. They say it with a reverance I have yet to see in a Ukrainian Catholic Church.or any Eastern Catholic church.

ukrainiancatholic, and only teen in my parish.

1) Not really, no.

2) The youth that go to church would prefer reverence and mystery. Those that don't wouldn't like feel-good entertainment in church (I don't think).

3) I think fully Eastern is good, but how can you make an exact definition of "fully Eastern"? So modifications, such as reading (not chanting) the Gospel, and reading the epistle facing the people, may both be good innovations, although not contrary to "Eastern-ity".

4) If the priest has a heart attack before the consecration. If something really urgent, like a medical emergency or war, happens during the service.

5) Yes.

6) Holy Dormition Pochaiv Lavra, Church of the Dormition, Vigil for the Universal Exaltation of the Holy Cross (not a Divine Liturgy, but rather Ninth Hour, Small Vespers, Great Vespers, Litya, Matins, and First Hour). Incredible: because I really understood what St. Vladimir's consorts meant when they went to Hagia Sophia in Constantinople and said they did not know whether they were in Heaven or on earth. The service lasted from 5:00 pm until about 11:00 or 12:00 pm. However, no one really noticed because it was so beautiful. And because it was so long, it allowed for time to marvel at the beauty of the church, the singing, the serving, and the service, and then focus on the prayer.

I see where you are going with this. Are you going to write a letter to the proper authorities?

Daniil

1) I am in favor of liturgies that pull me completely into the act of worshipping God for the simple reason that I am priveleged to do so. So, my answer is no. When Fr. Bill O'Brien was down in Tucson at St. Melany's (one of our short term replacements for now Bishop William Skurla), his first liturgy was like 2 hours! Did I mind? No! (although some did because it encroached on Sunday school time) Fr. Bill's reverence and joy and focus kept my mind focused on worshipping God, and not on my watch.

Lemme also not that your average Life Teen Mass at St. Tim's lasts for about one hour and forty-five minutes. If they can pull that off with contemporary Christian music and McLiturgy, then what are we Byzantines constantly complaining about?

2) The ultimate "feel-good" liturgy is one that completely draws one up into the cosmic act of worshipping God, and grants one the awareness (not merely the "feeling") of worshipping with the entire Church (past, present, glorified and those of us still on earth), indeed, with the entire universe. I'd say that the youth of today prefer mystery revealed (a topic discussed by Fr. Thomas Loya in his talk on iconography at WYD), and reverence that is truly interiorized. Which of course brings up the question of why we Byzantines insist more on catechesis from a packet instead of the Pentecostarion, but pointing out the obvious is not something generally associated with catechists, even in our Churches.

3. I am fully in support of thoroughly Eastern liturgies. But of course when it comes to inculturation of Byantine Christianity in the New World (especially the Southwest US) economia reigns supreme. Spanish in Divine Liturgies? Of course, to the extent deemed pastorally necessary and determined on a parish to parish basis. Traditional Mexican Catholic practices in the Ruthenian Church? Yep. I say bring on the Quincineras and icons of Juan Diego (my home parish of St. Thomas has one right in the social hall). Again, economia with prudence, just like in everything else. I'm as pro-Orthodox as they come, but let's remember what Stuart elsewhere said, "the biggest Latinism is between one's ears".

4. Economia= In pastoral practice and the spiritual life of the Church as a whole, this refers to keeping the spiritual "standard", "rule", or "ideal" as high (in fact, monastic) as possible, knowing full well that many, if not all of the faithful will fall short, and consequently offering the Church's counsel and spiritual helps where they're at. In the Byzantine mindset, the Church intuitively "knows" who are truly her sons and daughters instead of imposing legal and canonical hurdles to jump over in order to "prove" to the appropiate authority one's good faith and obedience to the Holy Spirit. Economia amounts to "leeway", but with a caveat: it's "maximalist leeway". Just another one of those paradoxes held in dynamic, constructive, tension which Byzantine theology does so well and often makes the Latins screaming for their Summas.

With that said, liturgies may be shortened if economia requires it, but as for hard and fast juridicial and canonical criteria as for when econcomia requires it, we should all understand as Byzantines that such a codex would be outdated before the ink dries. The Church is just that way.

5) Yes. But it would be a hard time convincing the more aged and wise amongst use otherwise if the most "visible" category of young people are those kids who show up to those more "teen-geared" liturgies. Authentic liturgy is much more unassuming, and always seems to prevail over the popular "prevailing wisdom" of the professional RC youth ministry and liturgical circles. Let's just hope (actually, pray) that the voices of sanity within the Sisters of St. Basil the great insure that the same doesn't happen to us.

6) Probably one of the Divine Liturgies I attended when I visited Holy Resurrection Monastery for a week back in March. I guess the mere presence of a handful of monks focused on worshipping God drew me more into prayer. Peer pressure works in spirituality too, it seems.

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

1) NO.

2) See Daniil's answer, that says it better than I could.

3) Fully Eastern, please.

4) One excuse for shortening Liturgies is during the summer, and not to promote beach-going; our parish's air conditioner doesn't make me any cooler, what with NYC temps in July/August, and tons of incense and candles (Syrians use much of both).

Aside from that, I think priests should be expected to exercise some sort of pastoral sensitivity that doesn't translate into laziness. Priests should be responsible or knowledgeable enough to know how much is enough for the people of his parish at any given time/celebration/whatever, without succumbing to any temptation to minimalism. So if Liturgy is long one day and shorter the next week, or always long, or always short, it should be for genuine reasons, and not for silly ones.

5) Probably.

6) I don't know if I can pinpoint one single favourite Liturgy, as I've got so many that I've thoroughly enjoyed. But for some reason, the Liturgy of Holy Thursday keeps coming to mind. It's the Liturgy (Syrian rite), without bells, ripidia, or even other "normal" rites, but there's something about celebrating Liturgy on the day the first Eucharist was celebrated, with bread with the *Holy Leaven*, partly in the language of Jesus, that makes that day that much more special. And the prayers for the day are awesome to say the least.

1) NO

2) Reverence and mystery in liturgy

3) Fully Eastern

4) A badly scheduled marriage or funeral Liturgy after the one currently being celebrated?

5) Yes

6) A nice long one at the Ukrainian Catholic National Shrine of the Holy Family in D.C. It was chanted fully and the chanting was beautiful. My 2 Latin friends with me, although they prefer the Tridentine Mass, said it was like being in Heaven.

1) no
2) reverence
3) fully and completely eastern
4) normally, no excuse that I can think of
5) yes
6) Pascha night, every year, year after year

[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Hieromonk Elias ]

My answers here pertain either (a) personal preferences, or (b) my personal observations of the behavior and preferences of others whom I know well.

1) Are you in general a fan of shortened, simplified liturgies? YES or NO?

No. The Liturgy is the liturgy, and while the liturgical tradition of the Eastern Churches allows for some abridgement for parochial celebration, that is a matter for each community to decide on its own, within broad guidelines for MINIMAL observance provided by the bishop. I do not believe in abridged TYPICAL editions.

2) Would you say the youth of today prefer reverence and mystery in liturgy, or feel-good entertainment approaches?

Numinous is in, definitely.

3) Do you prefer that Eastern liturgies be fully Eastern, or is it acceptable for them to be hybrids, incorporating aspects from other traditions (a.k.a. Latinisms)?

We are Eastern Christians, and we should follow our own authentic Traditions.

4) What is a valid excuse for ever shortening liturgies? Are there any excuses?

Practical considerations, such as clerical commitments (a priest who has to cover three parishes a day cannot do every little litany),or time constraints (the parish is renting the space by the hour). Note, though, that not every aspect of the liturgy must needs be celebrated by every parish at every liturgy. The important thing is that the typical edition be held up as the ideal towards which one might work. But insofar as the typical edition reflects a monastic ordo, it would not be entirely appropriate for it to be celebrated in full in a parochial or cathedral situation.

5) Do you think it a stereotype from older people that youth of today want short liturgies with popular or rock music?

Actually, in my parish, it is the older people who complain about the length. As for "rock music", never heard any in church myself. With regard to folk music, I'll just point out that Ruthenian Prostopinje IS folk music, while that dreck composed by St. Louis Jesuits is NOT.

6) What was the best liturgy you ever attended and why?

Probably one of the Orthodox liturgies at Orientale Lumen, precisely because not everyone was able to receive communion, which made tangible the longing for unity on the part of all.

These are not, by the way, particularly profound or even important questions.

"1) Are you in general a fan of shortened, simplified liturgies? YES or NO?"

I think that the liturgy should be do-able in 90 minutes in a typical parish. To the extent that things are getting much longer than that, I think it's worth looking at what can be done to keep the liturgy to a manageable length. I'm not in favor of making it significantly shorter than 90 minutes, however.

"2) Would you say the youth of today prefer reverence and mystery in liturgy, or feel-good entertainment approaches?"

I don't find the latter to be pastorally effective. I *do* think that there is a need for engagement with the youth of today in ways that speak to them, and I think youth groups and the like are a good forum for that. I think that the liturgy is what it is, however, and making it more "entertaining" doesn't seem pastorally useful, from my perspective.

"3) Do you prefer that Eastern liturgies be fully Eastern, or is it acceptable for them to be hybrids, incorporating aspects from other traditions (a.k.a. Latinisms)?"

I'm not in favor of liturgical cross-fertilization. Eastern should be Eastern, Latin should be Latin, etc. Our traditions are rich enough in themselves such that they don't need to borrow from others.

"4) What is a valid excuse for ever shortening liturgies? Are there any excuses?"

Pastoral considerations, such as those mentioned by Stuart.

"5) Do you think it a stereotype from older people that youth of today want short liturgies with popular or rock music?"

Yes, I think it is a holdover from the immediate post-Vatican-II era. It isn't really an issue in the Orthodox Churches, but I think that in *some* (certainly not all) Eastern Catholic communities there may be some pressure in this regard due to the experimentation relating to this that is happening in the Latin Church -- ie, there is a greater spillover tendency than there is within Orthodoxy.

"6) What was the best liturgy you ever attended and why?"

It's a tie between (1) a liturgy I attended a few months ago at St. Vladimir's Seminary and (2) a vespers service I attended in November 1999 in Bucharest, Romania. Both featured a lively, engaged congregation, and the worship exprience was unforced, organic and thoroughly consuming. I think that anyone who can afford it should take the time to experience the Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox country (other than perhaps Greece) -- it can serve as a useful reminder as to what Orthodox liturgy, and Orthodox liturgical atmosphere, is all about -- that curious combination of formal and informal, of reverence and folksiness, that characterizes this in the "Old country".

Brendan

Dear Friends,

When it comes to Liturgy, I'll do whatever everyone else in the particular parish I happen to be in is doing.

Alex

Generally speaking, I find so-called "straw polls" to be worth about as much as a pile of straw...the shape and form and length of time a Liturgy lasts shouldn't be important. What is important is the state of the mind and soul of the individual...the most fruitful Liturgy I have ever taken part in should have been the worst according to the criteria you have set with your questions...but the Spirit of God was there and I was open to the movement of the Spirit. If you are truly open to the movement of the Holy Spirit and presence of Christ on the Altar, you won't care how long it lasts or if there is a dreaded Latinism lurking in the sanctuary. Get over it boys and girls, man wasn't made for the Liturgy, Liturgy was made for man.
moe

I second your Moe-tion!

Alex

Dear Moe:

Please don't belittle the poll, there really is a point to all of this.

Your answer, though well intentioned was not necessarily helpful.


defreitas

[ 08-15-2002: Message edited by: defreitas ]

For a poll to be valid it much be unbiased...this poll is anything but that. I am all for a good, solid, well done Liturgy according to our rites and traditions...but the most important thing is that people be fed in Word and Sacrament. For example: length of Liturgy...the people who are going to be willing to stay for a 2 hour Liturgy are not the ones who need to be there! the ones who need the Liturgy the most are those whose attention span lasts maybe an hour, rarely more. those are the ones that the priest needs to reach. if Liturgy lasts much longer than that they won't come..they are lost and you ain't getting them back. but if you can keep there that one hour, you have a chance of reaching them. too many of the posters on this forum live in a dream world where everyone is a saint and everyone is dedicated to their religion. I'm sorry to tell you it ain't so...we have to reach people where they are, going down to their level or we ain't never gonna touch them. we get so wrapped up in non-essentials that we lose track of why we worship and why the Church exists...to touch people's lives and hearts and bring them to God. if we can't make the Byantine Church attractive to the masses, then we will disappear and be nothing more than a historical oddity that only scholars will remember. moe

Dear Moe,

You are courageous, and you have spoken well.

Alex