www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization ByzanTEEN we ARE a church

I have been reading an awful lot about this in other ares of the forum and i believe it needs ins own topic.

The only way our church is ever going to be able to blossom is if we take matters into our own hands. If we did things the way they should be done, upon the election of a new patriarch letters should be sent to the pope and all other heads of orthodox churches stating that our new Patriarch is Lubomir (I believe this is the way the Melkites do it). But alas, most of our Bishops and clergy are content with living in the shadow of Rome and therefore hold our church back from becoming what we should be.
The same argument goes for the Glorification of our Saints. Why must wre wait for someone sitting at a desk in Rome to tell us what we can and cannot do. IT IS UP TO US!

We Magnify thee,
O Holy Father Andrej
and we honour your sacred memory,
for you ever pray unto Christ our God for us!


Ilya

Dear Ilya,

Amin!

Amin!

Amin!


I have to say things three times here, as I qualify as a triple Byzanteener.

This is a wonderful little prayer.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

ilya,

One can explore and discuss what the various canonical nicieties and protocals are in the election of hierarchs, rather than follow the church's counsel to veneration whoever your own heart tells you, one can wait for hierarchs to approve public veneration and then enter into a long discussion as to whihc hierarch you should wait for.

But in the end, none of this will have much impact. Conversion of heart, concord and communion, personal action will. "Churchiandity" never saved a single soul.

Axios

My dear young master:

The making of saints does not a church make, many so-called churches make saints.

Rome assumed responsibility for the canonization of saints because of abuses committed by regional authorities.

A saint in a town or village was a sure-fire ticket to riches, fame and fortune.

I hear that the greatest pilgrimage site in Europe, after Lourdes, is the shrine of Saint Anthony at Padua [if I remember correctly 4 million visitors a year].

I have no problem with Rome investigating the lives of God's servants, they do a very good and thorough job and one is not prone to question their canonizations.

On the other hand, I have heard that a Russian Orthodox Church in the United States has canonized Alexis Toth.

Why is it that I feel doubts about this canonization?

Could it be that his personal and spiritual history are very specific to a certain period, church and or region.

Why should I question the canonization of another Orthodox Church? because in all conscience I do.

When one region or local church makes itself a saint, that�s all fine and dandy, he's their saint, but ultimately and in the end he's not mine.

I believe in the universality of Christ's salvitic mission, "In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile" all are equal before God.

If this is true of men, then it is also true of the saints.

I want all the servants of God to belong to me and not just to the Russians, Greeks, Italians, Poles, Chinese, Indians, etc. etc. etc.

Sainthood is not official deification nor a pretty ceremony, it is our recognition of God's providence and one should not make it anything more than that.


Holy Saint John of Kronstadt remember us poor sinners before the throne of our God.

defreitas

I was expecting exactly this response from you Jose. Thank you for balancing the scale.

Holy Right-Believing Prince Daniel, patron and protector of Moscow whose momory we joyfully celebrate this day, pray to God for us sinners!

Ilya Romanovich

Dear Ilya,

While I agree with everyone else here, I would also say that there has been an "imbalance" created by Rome following its centralization of the Canonization process.

The Pope has tried to restore balance by visiting the local Church and beatifying its saints.

But there is no reason why Local Churches could not declare their own saints, as they always have.

Even following the decree of Pope Urban VIII reserving beatifications to Rome, local Italian bishops continued to beatify their own saints.

These have found their way into the Roman calendar as well.

Blessed John Duns Scotus was beatified by a local Italian bishop centuries before the current Pope beatified him.

Add to this the further confusion that even when the Pope DOES beatify or canonize, this does NOT mean that the cult of the candidate is for universal veneration.

The Pope beatified a married couple, but their cult is limited to ROME ALONE.

When St Lous de Montfort was canonized a saint by Pope Pius XII in 1947, it was only recently that the Pope declared his feast a universal one in the universal Church.

There are many local saints that we would probably not want to honour, but who are important to the local Churches.

Bl. Charlemagne, Pontius Pilate and St Lucifer of Cagliari are all colourful and controversial local saints in their respective local Churches.

One is free to invoke them, but their public cult is limited to their dioceses or Churches - probably with good reason.

And, Ilya, I personally met with HRH Prince Michael of Kent on Friday. He is a Russophile, speaks Russian and is quite proud of his family connection to Tsar St Nicholas and the Royal Romanov Family.

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex (also Romanovich)

I just found a crazy hair and pulled it out...forgive my being presumptuous...

But here's what I think you should do:

Just like Ilya says, become more and more independent. Become so independent that in reality you are an autocephalous church in communion with Rome. Then you can show all of Orthodoxy that it is possible to be in communion with Rome on acceptable terms. And THEN...

Once you've established yourselves in this way, you can go on to bring about an ecumenical crisis of just the right sort: You sit down with the Orthodox, work out all the necessary details and re-establish communion with them. Then let Rome and the rest of them figure out what to do. Meanwhile, I can come to your church with my RC friends and we can finally have communion together.

Just being silly.

Except for the part about wanting to take communion with my friends.

DL

Dear David,

Actually, you're not too far off . . .

Fr. Prof. Bilaniuk of St Michael's University said as much in an article about declaring a Ukrainian "Catholicosate" in Kyiv.

He suggested all the Ukrainian churches, including the Greek Catholic reunite under this Orthodox Catholicos.

And then he could have relations with Rome and other Patriarchs and Churches as he likes.

He suggested he should have relations with all of them, as an equal.

So you're not far off . . .

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex

Boy, if that happened, I'd make a pilgrimage to Kyiv with a few of my closest Catholic Brethren just so we could, once in our lives, recieve our Lord together.

Forgive me a sinner,

David

Dear David,

Actually, you can go to Kyiv and visit the great shrines there any time!

You can attend an Eastern CAtholic Liturgy there, and there are plans on constructing an Eastern Catholic Cathedral.

The Kyivan Caves Lavra is the largest urban Choir of Saints anywhere with more than 150 Saints in the underground caverns.

There are also 61 Skulls of unknown Saints, together with Relics of others.

Several dozen other Saints whose relics repose elsewhere were tonsured there as monks.

Among the early missionaries to Kyiv were, of course, Celtic Missionaries from Iona and Wales, St David's Team .

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex

The idea of a Catholicos for our church is bogus.
If I am not mistaken, he had some idea that it was the Catholicosate of Tmutorokan (or Tmutarakan) whose title the Church of Kyiv should take. This is all very nice, but people don't even recognize the title "Patriarch", so why go for something so "out there" that everyone knows it's crazy?

I agree with Ilya's first post on this topic, but how can we expect other people to take our church seriously when we don't take it seriously ourselves. If we did, we would all follow the new translations, we would not question our hierarchy, and we would probably have Metropolitan John of Warsaw and Przeshezczhfrdmyshel as our Patriarch. Thank God we are in the bad situation that we are in. We don't listen to our hierarchy on certain matters we decide.

And don't say that when we get independence from Rome on certain matters it will all be better! The same people whose laws and instructions we ignore or disrespect now will be the same ones in control, and then we will be in the same or worse position. We need a new generation of smart bishops (which, in my opinion has already began to appear -- starting after the Danylak affair) to make this move to independence Ilya speaks of possible.


Pray, and it will happen. Pray harder, and it may happen sooner.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

Fr. Bilaniuk was simply raising an issue and discussed it in a public forum, comparing the possible advantages of a Catholicosate over a Patriarchate.

It was for this article of his that got him into trouble with the Church authorities at the time. At least he had the courage to raise this issue in what he thought was a democratic forum, and it wasn't.

And who is "everybody?" The problem with using terms like that is that when we say "everybody" we are appealing to a nonentity. We haven't asked for "everybody's" opinion on the matter and so we don't know.

When you get to be like Fr. Bilaniuk, and I have every confidence that you will, one day, then you can call his ideas by whatever name you choose.

In the meantime, please be a little less dogmatic about what are your own personal views that most Ukrainians may or may not be in agreement with.

God bless,

Alex

On a lighter note, how exactly does one pronounce Przeshezczhfrdmyshel?!

:p

By writing "crazy", I meant "not a good idea". Pardon any confusion created by that comment.

Fr. Bilaniuk was a good man. He was ordained with my father. I don't want to disrespect him, because he was a pioneer for our Church. However, I must say that we have come a long way since his time, and we now have other theologians and leaders to look for as role models.

The name of the city is not actually spelled that way. In Polish it is pronounced "Pshemyshl" and in Ukrainian, "Peremyshel". As to its spelling in Polish,...you've got me.

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

I agree, but Fr. Bilaniuk was willing to take it on the chin.

How many of our new guys can lay claim to that kind of heroism?

And why do we need (just wondering) a patriarch from Peremysl?

God bless you, little fellow! We expect, and will get, great things from you!

Alex