www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization ByzanTEEN Family Emergency

Hi y'all,

Having barely begun my look into the history of Ukranian and Ruthenian Churches, it already pains me to see how the Unia themselves: not only jurisdictionally, but in many other ways divided the Ruthenians and Ukranians as well as those of us that would eventually end up in the Ukranian or Ruthenian Churches (like yours truly).

I mean, there's the political intrigue from the Poles, the infighting between the EC's and the EO's, and all the damage sustained and inflicted because both Rome and the Poles intended to use them as tools of subjection. After all that the EC's suffered at the hands of the Commies, they flee to the U.S. only to have their identity and rights violated flagrantly and repeatedly at the hands of the Church that they came into "union" with. I mean, during these fiascos the Ruthenian Catholic Church lost about half its members!, in addition to the added problem of striving to be "Catholic" (read: "Roman"), in contrast to the "Orthodox", and the resulting Latinization and bending over backwards to become something they're not in order to live in conformity with a lie. The creation of this "Us" and "Them" within the orginally one Ruthenian Orthodox family is simply unexcusable. The Johnstown debacle was most unfortunate, but it's very hard to blame those who realized the whole insanity of the situation and ran for shelter. If only those Ruthenian Orthodox priests had the slightest idea what would happend to their spiritual progeny...

Anyhoo, how do the present-day ByzanTEENS (Catholic or Orthodox) feel about the forced separation from their brothers and sisters across the Tiber? How does it make the other ByzanTEENS on this board feel knowing that the residual latinizations and the reluctancy in our some of our parishes, priests, and hierarchs to remove them only perpetuates an unjust, unholy, unreasonable, and unjustifiable rupture? How long will it take until the Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Melkite, etc... youth stand up for reunification with our natural mother and refuse to comply with the propagation of a disaster, no matter how many of the older generation gets offended?

How long will take until someone stands up and says, "Yo, this just isn't cool. Let's just take the beefs from the old country and leave 'em there. Haven't y'all realized yet that our re-Byzantification is more than liturgical committees and rubricism...that there's much, much more at stake here?"

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Darrenn Jackson ]

I'm not a teen so I hope my comment is not considered inappropriate here. I would add that sometimes the history is depressing to read. Sometimes, though, there is more to the story. It's important to remember that one cannot over-simplify what has happened (as in the oft repeated but false claims that the Union occurred only for political reasons or that once given the opportunity they left the Union). A good read on this can be found at:

http://www.utoronto.ca/stmikes/theology/taft-kelly2000.htm

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dave,

I love "Amnesis, not Amnesia" more every time I read it.

Of course I understand that the Unions didn't occur just for political purposes. I mean, RCC couldn't have been that bad if they decided to join up with 'em to begin with.

I wish more of our young people would people like Fr. Taft S.J.

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

Dear Darrenn,

Heaven knows, I'm not a teenager, but still young at heart (I had a deprived childhood, you know).

I went into the Byzantine Rite when I was a teenager and began reading both liturgical and historical "stuff" related to the same.

Your point is well taken. The problem in the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox communities is that the number of years they have been separated from one another has resulted in the development of two separated spiritual cultures.

Even one's ethnic identity is shaped by whether one is Greek Catholic or Orthodox.

The Orthodox regarded us as "Polonophiles" and we regarded them as "Russophiles" (untrue in both cases).

Add to this the mutual suspicions regarding strictly theological matters such as, for example, the widespread belief that the Orthodox somehow denigrate the Mother of God because they don't accept the Immaculate Conception etc.

When we had that situation involving our bishops a few years' back, a number of our people and a few priests went over to the Orthodox Church.

The reactions were telling.

Some asked one former priest if he did this to get more money, since his move involved a "promotion."

In that case, they said, they "understood completely and would have done the same."

Others mourned that their parish was among the most Byzantine in the country so "What else did he want from us?"

Others still considered him a "traitor" even though he joined the Orthodox Church of the same cultural group!

Both of our Churches do believe that they are individually the "Right Way" to go. They generally recognize each other and like each other from afar.

But as to what they really feel about one another underneath it all? I could tell you stories . . .

We are still our own worst enemies.

Alex

Alex,

"We're our own worse enemies"

You know, the more I look into this stuff, the more I agree with that statement. My question is this: is there any motivation to change all this? What concrete steps (from the Ruthenian hierarchs especially) have been taken to prevent all this poison from reaching the next generation? If the people who continue to perpetuate this artificial division are the same people who teach our kids, run our newspapers, and head up our beloved GCU, then don't we just have a case of the "blind leading the blind"?

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

Darrenn- It's starts one person at a time. I am in favor at bare minimum for a REunification of the Ruthenians and Ukrainians.
Supposedly, the urban myth I have been told, was that we almost did reeunite after Rome divided and conquered . . . but such nobel plans fell through.

I was baptized Ruthenian, grew up Ukrainian, I will be a seminarian for the Ukrainian Church starting this fall in Ottawa. Because of "ethnic" squabbling in my local Ukrainian parish, I re-transplanted myself at the Ruthenian parish. The Priest has been kind enough to allow me to help in leading the chants. I knew culturally, that we (Ruthenian and Ukrainian) are virtually the same thing. (I liken the main difference between us as being subject under different opressors. Ruthenians were Magyarized and Ukrainains Polonized. This is my opinion, and one more intuitive). Now that I am singing Ruthenian chant, even that is 90-95% the same, and some like "WE BOW TO YOU CROSS" are 100% the same. I do not think that areas in which we differ (between Ukrainian and Ruthenian) is any different form any other regional difference within one large population. It is a family fued of epic proportions with the Hatfield's on one side of the mountain and the McCoy's on the other (Carpathian Mts). In Halychyna customs vary from village to village, just as they do in Pid Karpaty. Are those differences enough to justify splitting a church. Imagine if Roman Catholic Churches in America were split along ethnic juristdictions! That is liken to the situation in Ukraine with the Greek Catholics split at the mountain ridge.

We ARE our own worst enemy.

I would support reunification.

Perhaps, a major Archbishop in Washington DC for all Byzantine Catholics? A Cathedral accross from the street from the National Shrine? Then we could have "ethnic" metropolias under an archeparchy that could administer to respective Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Melkite, Romainian, Russian, and Hungarian, etc. Eastern Catholic Churches. It could be called the Eastern Catholic Church of America. The Archeparch, Metropolias, and eparchial Bishops could compose the Synod, AND the first thing the Syond could do would be to establish ONE definitve English Liturgical text, instead of a different translation in every parish.

Ah, now I'm dreamin'

But we have to start somewhere. I am happy to see people younger than I . . . and I am only 26, that have good healthy dreams and hopes for the future. Maybe there is a reason?

Keep on thimpkin'
Ality

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: Ality ]

Well, we do have a National Shrine --- across the street and up the hill from the National Shrine.

www.ucns-holyfamily.org [ucns-holyfamily.org]

But, maybe, we should just take over the Basilica. It does have a Byzantine dome and a wonderful Pantocrator Icon on the inside. We could make some (very large) Rushnyky to cover up the statues until the Latins want to borrow the Church back.


"Ah, now I'm dreamin'

But we have to start somewhere. "


I doesn't make sense for the Kyivan Church to be fragmented. Let us dream the dream of Andrew Sheptytsky, Josyf Slipyj, and Theodore Romzha. Let us pray and work to begin the process.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Ah, but those are only the Byzantines...you should call it the Byzantine Catholic Church of America or something. But don't just call it the Eastern Catholic Church of America, unless you have plans for the Catholic Copts, Syrians, Chaldeans, Malabars, Malankars, Ethiopians, and Armenians. :p

I'm not a teen so moderator delete me if you think it best!


I went to school in a city where the Roman Churches were mostly "nationality" parishes. You had to be "at least half" of that nationality to be a member. I am not kidding. There was an Italian parish, a Polish parish, a Croatian parish, an Irish parish, and one "catch-all" for people who didn't "qualify" for the others. :rolleyes: These "nationality parishes" had most Masses in their native tongues, so you could attend but you wouldn't understand much, if anything. BTW, this city also had a Ruthenian Catholic parish, a Ukrainian Catholic parish, and Russian, Greek, Ukrainian, and Coptic Orthodox Churches!

[ 03-24-2002: Message edited by: Entomos ]

[ 03-24-2002: Message edited by: Entomos ]

You are so correct please forgive me a sinner!

Ality