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Aklie,

I guess I stand corrected about your Church and slavery. You had a lot to say, and I think I can learn from you. However I would just like to point out that the Latin Catholic Church has never had a theology - that was Church theology - of denial of the humanity of black Africans, Native American Indians, or any other persons. I don't know of this Pope you speak of but I do know there were Bishops and Priests that held the same theological stance as the Protestants regarding the denial of black or Indian humanity. But we also have clergy to this day that hold the theological stance that women can and should be ordained to the Priesthood - so I suppose it's worth what it's worth. For that Pope... well he's not the only Pope not to have held black Africans in high regards. But h@$l we've had a Pope that put a dead man on trail in his coffin so....

As to that link, I have to be honest with you that it seems to be the type of propaganda the Nation of Islam puts out about the Jews (though I understand this site is not set up by the NOI). So no as of this time I don't believe it.


Peace.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:
[QB]

Dear Abdur,

"You fell into right into aRomanCatholicGuy's trap in your last post. I do not think that there is any evidence that the “corrupt, oppressive, [and] violent” governments or the drug trade in Latin America has anything to do with the Catholic Church or the Catholic culture of the Latinos. It is Latin American Studies 101 wisdom that the conditions in Latin America are the result of American imperialist policy in the region. The Catholics have been just as much victims of this as anyone else there. They have had Nuns and an Archbishop assassinated by death squads that were later proven to have connections with the CIA."

I can't agree. You see, Latin America had fallen into the abyss of corruption long before there was even such a political/social entity as the United States of America. But, my purpose wasn't to blame the Catholic Church for the difficulties in Latin America; it was just the opposite.

Besides, you misinterpreted my point.

I will give you time to figure out what my real message was to Roman Catholic Guy.

It has something to do with stereotypes and with the accuracy of stereotypes.

I think he understands my point.

In other words, my response to his post was sarcastic.

Salaam,

Abdur

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Aklie,

"Mor" or "Mar" in Syriac technically means "Lord", but used in context, it means "Saint". Thus, "Mor Ephrem" is translated as "Saint Ephrem", who is one of my favourite saints. His many hymns are found in abundance in the Syriac Liturgy and Hours...I would dare to say that the bulk of everything we sing was written by Mor Ephrem, the Harp of the Holy Spirit.

When I first saw that you were Ethiopian Orthodox, I thought to myself "Wasn't one of our priests dean of the seminary in Ethiopia?", and there you go giving me his name. Thank you. As far as his writings, I'm not sure if they have been published in book form...if they have been, they are most probably in India. We here in the US don't usually get the theological works that are published over there...we get sent devotional/spiritual works. They're great, but I like challenging reading, and so it's a shame that we don't get those books here...plus, it's also a matter of not having enough people to translate books into English. I will look into the matter and see what I can find out for you. Thanks for the name of his book on Chalcedon...I didn't know he wrote on this, and so now I have one more book to track down and read. You're full of all sorts of help, aren't you?

Also, I do not completely understand how to use this page. I click on your profiles but all I am told is the dates that you joined. I also keep reading references to other �strings� of discussion but I am not sure how to get there or see past discussions. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

The profiles don't tell much...just things like email, number of posts, when we registered, etc. But they come in handy when you want to send someone a private message. If you ever need to do that, I think you can do it by clicking on the person's profile and clicking the proper link.

As far as other threads go, if you know the context of the thread in question, you can always go to the top of the screen and hit the search link, and then you can search the site and see what you pull up. If you do that and still have no luck, just ask someone where that thread might be, and I'm sure someone will be able to point you in the right direction.

I know that you said that there are not English translations of the Ethiopian Liturgy readily available, but are there videos of the Liturgy that are available anywhere--ANYWHERE, or CD's, audio cassettes, or mp3's of Ethiopian chant? I would be very interested in seeing/hearing these. And of course, should you ever have any questions about all things Syrian and/or Indian, you know where to find me.

Once again, welcome to this place...it feels good having another friend, a fellow Christian of the Oriental Orthodox tradition, here. Now if we could just get that Coptic guy to come out of the woodwork...

Brother Mor Ephrem,

Thank you for clarifying the meaning of Mor or Mar. It is similar to our usage of the word “Qidus”, which can mean either saint or holy. So you can say Qidus Marcos (Saint Mark) or Qidus Metshaf (Holy Book, or Holy Bible). Also Mor Ephrem seems similar to a Saint that we have in our Church, Qidus Yared. Qidus Yared is the creator of the “zema” or hymnary of our Church around 525 AD or so and also the author of five important books. What intrigues me now that you mentioned Mor Ephrem is that I do remember reading a reference somewhere that said that Saint Yared had good relations with one of the famous “9 Saints.” These saints are said to have come to Egypt and then to Ethiopia in the 6th Century from Syria as the Non-Chalcedonies were being persecuted by Byzantine. I am now very curious if they discussed more than theology and maybe a little about hymns also.

Father Dr. Vilakuvel Cherian Samuel's book "The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined” (expanded from his PhD thesis) was reprinted by British Orthodox Press last year. You do not need to search for it, just call Barns and Noble or Borders Book (or call the distributors: 1-888-7-XLIBRIS). He was the Dean at the Theological College in Addis Ababa as well as later being the dean of the Orthodox Theological Seminary in Kottayam. He was impressed by the extent that the Ethiopian church was an indigenous church and was Africanized authentically through its historical experience. He went on to explore this question in relation to Indian Orthodoxy. Some of the articles that I wanted to read by him are on that very topic. Articles like: “Christianity and Indigenization”, “Is this an Indian Church?”, and “Truth Triumphs” are just a few that I am waiting to get my hands on. I even understand he has an autobiography written in his native Indian language (his non-Indian native language being English). All the elders are marking that age and I think that a good historian needs to go and collect their testimonies now. For instance I think that his work in Ethiopia needs to be appreciated in new light. The Ethiopian Church, during his tenure there, had official status and state support and Haile Sellasie was as much a diplomatic figure in Orthodoxy as he was in world politics. Through his influence over the Ethiopian emperor Father Samuel made a bigger impact on Orthodox relations than he is probably given credit for. He also played a role in the 1964 theological consultation between Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian Churches held in Denmark. Anyway, I better stop before I go on to much with him.

As far as the liturgy you may be able to find English translations in a university library. Look for Marcos Daoud. 1960. “The Liturgy of the Ethiopian Church” Cairo: The Egyptian Book Press. You may also hear it. There is a CD called “Ethiopian Liturgy: live from the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewadeo Church” you can order it at: http://www.holylandmall.net/etlitlivfrom.html

God be with you

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Brother Maximus,

That is called an “argument by association.” Without proving wrong the facts one just dismisses it because of the authors. Heck, even the Bible says that demons believe that there is a God (James 2:19). Now does the fact that a demon believes there is a God prove that there is not simply because it is a demon that believes it? Likewise, just because the NOI quotes a fact does not disprove it just because they say it. If the NOI found out about the ADL sending info to South Africa and getting indicted for it then all that proves is that they found out something correct.

No this site is not set up by the NOI or anybody sympathetic with it. Plus the case was in the courts and is a matter of public record. I am the most skeptical person you will probably ever meet. When I was an undergraduate I did not even believe my textbooks half the time. I would not dare refer someone to something that stood on credulous grounds. That article comes from the online version of Counterpunch newsletter. It was founded and is edited by Alexander Cockburn (columnist with the renowned weekly “Nation Magazine&#8221 and Ken Silverstein What is it that you do not believe? That prominent members of the ADL were formally indicted by the District of Attorney of San Francisco for spying? That the District Attorney released 700 pages documenting their case? Of course the charges were dropped due to political pressure, just as the UN resolution that declared Israel a racist state was withdrawn after enormous political pressure on third world countries by Washington (but not due to a re-examination of the facts). The lawyer for the plaintiffs suing the ADL in the civil case was former congressman Pete McCloskey. Roy Bullock (the defendant) admitted most of the stuff. The ADL did not spy on non-Jews. It spied on opponents of Israel and South Africa including Jews. In our San Francisco Bay Area progressive Jewish activist are usually opposed to Israel, for example, Dennis Bernstein who hosts a famous Radio Program on Pacifica Radio (Flashpoints). When the controversy broke out here in the Bay Area it was big local news so it comes as not surprise to people in this area.

Egzabiher keante gar yehun,

Aklie Semaet

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

As I've said Aklie - I can learn a lot from you.

But I may have to check into this a bit further to be sure. But your points, and corrections of me, are well made.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear All,

Whom do I represent? The Old Believers, whose rituals I follow? The now-extinct Chinese Nestorians? The Indian Syrian Orthodox whose church I attend in Singapore?

Heh heh :p

Wishing all a blessed Great Week and Pascha!

Yours in Domino,

Edward

To all, just a post to clear up any misconceptions about that Confederate remark. It had nothing to do with slavery and wasn't meant to insult.

Thanks.

In IC XC
Samer

Good enough Samer.

Anyways, I'm a union blue sympathizer. Years back the state of Tennessee asked Wisconsin to return back a flag of a Confederate soldiering outfit from Tennessee that a Wisconsin Union outfit captured in battle with them.

A Wisconsin veterens orginization steped in. And sent a reply.

"What was taken in blood shall not be surrendered in diplomacy".

I fully concur.

PROPHET MUHAMMAD'S
CHARTER OF PRIVILEGES TO CHRISTIANS

(Lest the Arab Islamic majority forget the tradition of the Prophet--PBUH--and their obligation and moral duty to protect the Palestinian Christian minority from persecution by fanatics and terrorists.)

LETTER TO THE MONKS OF ST. CATHERINE MONASTERY


In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

An English translation of that document is presented below.

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected.

They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur-

It sounds more like a general statement concerning the relations of Muslims with Christians, rather than just a decree protecting St. Catherine's Monastery.

ALity

I agree.

Salaam,

Abdur

Coptic Christians support the "martyrs?"

www.kavkaz.org/eng/article.php?id=561 [kavkaz.org]

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Selam Abdur,

I do not see why that is so surprising. If you are a Palestinian then you are colonized, period. It does not matter if it is a colonized Muslim or a colonized Christian. They are all equally colonized. It concerns all Palestinians and all Arabs in general. It also includes people living in Arab countries like the Copts. That is the problem with having a “Muslim analysis” of the Palestinian Liberation Struggle. The situation should not be looked at from the perspective of a Muslim—it should be looked at from the perspective of an Arab.

Like Malcolm X (El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz) used to say in the last year of his life: “stop worrying so much about religion. About what religion am I, what religion are you. When they decide to lynch you, they don't lynch you because you're a Baptist or a Methodist, they won't decide to lynch me because I am a Muslim. If they lynch us, they lynch us because we are Black.”

This tendency to try and interpret the situation as that of Jews vs. Muslims is unfortunate. Not every Jew is a Zionist and not every Zionist is a Jew. Anti-Zionists include Jews in their ranks, such as Hava Keller a 70 year old Holocaust survivor and an advocate for female Palestinian political prisoners.

In the 1960's the Palestinians had an ideological struggle. The majority of the movement rejected the approach of “holy war” and looking at the task of liberation through the eyes of religion. It is only recently that the more religious orientations have gained so much popularity. This is due to a number of factors. One is that, unfortunately, older organizations have started cutting deals with Israel that compromises the Palestinian liberation effort. These deals would make Palestine another form of South African Bantustan.

But I take issue with these Copts. If the only parallel that the Orthodox Clergy drew with the disciples Jesus and the Shaheeds was that the former stood up for their convictions and their faith just as the latter today are defending their land I have no problem what so ever. But if the Copts are making theological compromises beyond statements like these then…


God Be With You


Aklie Semaet

The Politics of Victimhood

Victimhood has become a default position for Jews and Palestinians alike -- with bloody consequences for both peoples.

May 8, 2002

As the pictures of carnage in Israel stream into our living rooms, it's not as if American Jews lack reasons for desperation. If you suicide-bomb us on Passover, do we not bleed?
Does that bleeding lead to a relaxed feeling toward suicide-bomb factories in the Jenin camp, a renewed trust in Arafat, a calm resumption of negotiations toward a Palestinian homeland? Who, having been victimized again and again, is in a mood to question the tactics of self-defense or care much about innocent victims on the enemy side?

To feel victimized has become a default position for Jews, a plain human reaction for which centuries of anti-Semitism are the explanation. Even in the US, Jewish achievements aren't enough to erase Jewish fears.

The fears are bad enough, but worse trouble comes when they crystallize into a politics predicated on victimhood. When the victim mentality takes the place of political argument, huge errors result. Feelings, whatever their sources, are neither moral nor political arguments. They do not justify tactics. The mind must always find a way to make sense.

Flooded with fear and rage, embracing the politics of victimhood, Israelis are hoping to simplify the world. That was the purpose for which they installed Ariel Sharon to run their Promised Land. Of course the Palestinians have their own wild fear and rage, their own furious penchant for simplification, their own feelings of victimhood.

But now America's Jews, in their own spasm of fear, anger and defensiveness, are circling the wagons and espousing a world view every bit as simplistic as that of Israel's Jews, and in some ways even more so. Damn the media, damn the Europeans, damn the UN -- damn everybody who didn't lose relatives to the Nazis. Damn even the Israeli majority who, even after the madness of recent months, amazingly still stand ready to dismantle settlements as part of a land-for-peace deal.

The hell-bent search for self-justification brings grails full of blood. For actions have consequences, however pure and justifiable the feelings that fuel them.

Such is the awful flaw in the desperado politics of victimhood embraced by Jews and Palestinians alike: The victim mentality, left unleashed, both leads to the crimes of the present and incites the murderers of the future, who might not hesitate to graduate from suicide bombs to suitcase bombs. At this moment, Palestinians who think with their blood are thirsting for the apocalyptic day when they will run the risk of rendering large portions of their wished-for homeland unfit for human habitation. Meanwhile, Jewish fundamentalists, cheered on by the leaders of America's Christian right, gird up to expel the Philistines once more. Self-righteousness has its reasons, but it murders the future in the name of an unsalvageable past.

Consider how the pure feelings have ratcheted up. Sharon's provocative expedition onto the Temple Mount in September 2000 ignited Palestinian violence, which fueled an Israeli crackdown, which led to Palestinian uproar, which resulted in Sharon's election, which in turn fueled Hamas's bombings, which in turn made Sharon's West Bank invasion palatable in Israel and the United States, which in turn gave Arafat new legitimacy, and so it goes, ad nauseam.

Again, Jewish nightmares of victimhood are not strictly paranoid. Nor are the Palestinians'. Anti-Semitism is far from a figment of Sharon's imagination. But some of the anti-Semitism now sweeping Europe and North Africa is a reaction to his bulldozing exploits. A vile reaction, but a reaction nevertheless. True, many in the Arab world use the plight of the Palestinians as an alibi for local autocracy, and attacks on Muslims brought down no wrath from the world when the victims were Kurds and the perpetrator was Saddam Hussein.

But the truth remains: The Palestinians have gotten a raw deal -- they are victims as well, even if the autocrats say so. Moreover, Israel is no weakling, and democracies have responsibilities.

It bears repeating. Leave aside today's bloody passions and the outlines of a deal are still imaginable: (1) The establishment of a viable Palestinian state separated from Israel by the 1967 boundary and with its capital in East Jerusalem; (2) The removal of all the Gaza settlements and nearly all the West Bank settlements, allowing the settlers the right to return to pre-1967 Israel; (3) The stationing of foreign troops -- Americans prominent among them -- to help enforce the deal; (4) The abandonment by Palestinians of the right of return to Israel proper in exchange for compensation, as agreed during the Taba talks of late 2000.

Smart security demands political insurance. Which is why American Jews have a stake in getting the United States to intervene not as a bank or a cheering squad for Sharon but as a two-part power: a muscle and a brain.
It's good, for this one reason, that the Bush administration and the Saudis are consolidating their oil-soaked friendship.

It's good that Washington finally appears ready to include the Europeans and the Russians in its diplomacy. The Saudis -- with help from the Europeans and the Russians -- should get the Palestinian leadership in line (and in rebuilding mode). The US should do likewise to Israel, as no one else can. Since some of the more than $3 billion annual aid to Israel goes to support settlements, the US should let Sharon know it is reconsidering a substantial portion of its support.

It's long past time for American Jews to rise above the politics of victimhood. And it's long past time for Sharon to stop taking American Jewish support for granted. He is not King of the Jews. In the real world of nations, no support should be absolute. Loyalty is not silence. Peoplehood is not a contract to gag yourself. Panic is not only a bad argument -- it's no argument at all. Enough.


Todd Gitlin is a professor of journalism, culture, and sociology at New York University and the author of many books on media and society, including the recently released "Media Unlimited".