www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Bishop JOHN's Consecration, etc.

Alex,

I don't think I've ever heard that one before! I so love the stories of St. Bridget! I still get into arguments with my girlfriend regarding the historical reality of St. Bridget versus the myths surrouding the ancient pagan Celtic goddess Bride. She's finally accepted the fact that a woman named Bridget lived and founded the abbey at Kildare, but still insists all of the stories surrounding her have their origin in paganism.

Slowly, but surely...but still slowly...she's coming around. I'll help bring her into the Church soon enough!

In Christ,
mikey.

PS Welcome back and please don't leave again!

Dear in Christ,

To be quite honest, I wouldn't know a monastic staff/crozier from an episcopal whatever, and at distance, these poor old bifocalled eyes probably couldn't make out any differences even if I did.

As for the Ruthenians not vesting the bishop in the church, I dunno - I've seen it done a number of times. I remember thinking the first time I saw it, "One bishop. Some assembly required."


Cheers,

Sharon

Everyone FYI,

If you saw the photo and news article from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the crosier used by Met. Basil is a monastic crosier. It looks like a "tau" cross but it also has a regular, non-three barred cross on the top. The Heguman of the monastery wears a kobluk and veil and a hegumen's mantle that is different from a bishop's mantle and also has a staff or crossier that denotes being the head of that particular monastery.

Ung-Certez

Really? I am fascinated, I have not in this country. Can you tell me who and where/when? Thanks!

Bob

[ 07-11-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

I remember that it was done at the 25th anniversary in Parma.


Sharon

It is my understanding that there is no distinction in the different pastoral staff.

Remember, every Eastern Bishop is a monastic. There is no such thing as a non-monastic veil. The veil is part of the monastic habit, and you cannot have a non-monastic monastic anything. The proper color for a bishop is black everything.

The styles of crosier are more to do with the greek or slavic styles (not monastic vs. non-monastic). The style with the serpents heads is the greek style. The level "tau" is the slavic style. Both are monastic and both are episcopal.

Elias

p.s., if I am wrong about this, please let me know. But that is my understanding.

Does anyone have a picture of Metropolitan Judson wearing the white klobuk? Could they scan it and post it? Or tell me where to find it?

The idea of a bishop wearing a purple klobuk seems strange to me. It's unhistorical. A bishop is celibate, so what's the problem with a black klobuk? Smacks of legalism to me.

Also, aren't mandyas monastic garb? So why do some of our bishops wear mandyas but freak out if you mention klobuks? Seems like cognitive dissonance.

Did Bishop Milan of Kosice wear his klobuk? Now he looks good in his.

In Christ,

anastasios

In reply to a private e-mail, the consecrating bishops were Met. Basil, Bishop Andrew Pataki, and Bishop William Skurla.

As for the white klobuk, I believe that Met Judson wore it when visiting Holy Resurrection Monastery. (During their pilgrimage????)

I know I saw it published, too.


Sharon

Do you mean at the two events this week? I was not at either but I don't think that he would rock the boat by doing that.

While in his territory he would, I have seen him there. However, to do so here would seem somewhat 'in your face.' If he was in it I will be shocked.

Someone tell me the fact please.

Bob

Lordy, I have no clue. I know he was there, but I wouldn't know him if he bit me. There were lots of hierarchs, with and without hats of various shapes, sizes, colors and flavors. (Hierarchs AND hats.)

Is an apple always an apple? A priest friend of mine was in Greece a few years ago, wearing some sort of hat which according to our (Ruthenian) tradition was perfectly kosher. More kosher than he knew - apparently in Greece, Jewish cantors wear them. Different traditions...

Cluelessly yours,

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor (no hat, just a schmatte) and sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Every ancient account of St. Brigid's life mentions this (although I have never heard the excuse of St. Mel being blind before).

I suspect there is truth behind the story.........


Michael

The Ruthenian bishops in the US often vested in the church prior to the 1970s. It was a very common practice.

Bishop Nicholas Elko almost always did so, as did Bishop (later Metropolitan) Kocisko. That is why in pictures, especially in church anniversary or dedication books from that era you will often see them vested in both the mantia and then the eucharistic vestments. Bishop Elko, being a fan of pomp and splendor, very much enjoyed the ritual of being vested in the church. On his part, it probably reminded him of the former Roman ritual, where the bishop or priest would wear the cope to begin the liturgy and then change to the chasuble after the "asperges" or perhaps not until after the "liturgy of the word."

Bishop Emil Mihalik of Parma was also known to vest in the middle of the church on certain occasions.

Today, there are many bishops who do not perform this rather involved ritual, including almost never, Metropolitan Nicholas of Johnstown and many Greek as well as some OCA bishops. It is not an absolutely necessary rite and without a full staff, is difficult to pull off in style.

I have never heard of differences between Greek and Slavic crosiers, but rather between "monastic" and "episcopal" ones. The monastic staff is that which is mentioned here as the "tau-cross" style. The episcopal one uses the serpents. Since bishops are theoretically all monastic, they would have the option of using either model. Yes, the OCA bishops often will use the monastic one on occasion, including Metropolitan Theodosius.

If one noticed, the vestments, mitre and crosier used by Metropolitan Basil at the enthronement were those that belonged to Metropolitan Judson of blessed memory - the pure "white" paschal style vestment, with the matching mitre and the monastic zhezel.

The colored klobuks are a recent innovation, that I've only seen in the US, among the Ukrainian Catholic bishops. So far as I am aware, they are properly only black or white, with white being reserved for metropolitans of the Slavic tradition. Among the Greeks, black only is used, for anyone.

Mantias are worn with either the mitre and crosier or with the klobuk and walking stick. They can be used with the epitrachil underneath and the omophorion on top (usually when the bishop is celebrating a liturgical service other than the Divine Liturgy), sometimes with just the epitrachil or by themselves altogether.

I agree with those here who were disillusioned with the lack of congregational singing and emphasis on choral arrangements. While there are many, many beautifully composed choral pieces, it was always the custom in the Ruthenian Church to use prostopinije, especially at large gatherings. Some of the most beautiful liturgies were those historical celebrations, with a packed church and everyone singing our beautiful melodies. Metropolitan Kocisko insisted on this over the choir music. It is definitely one of the strong points of our tradition.

While there is a place for everything, nothing could beat the plain chant in Church Slavonic with a full congregation and I simply cannot understand why the hierarchs would wish to de-emphasize it now, in favor of classical church music which one can listen to but not participate in. It just makes no sense whatsoever, when we have this so-called "jewel" that we refer to as "prostopinije."

Despite our sometimes "latinized" past, we have many positive attributes to share with the whole church and should promote these, rather than try to "fix" something that was not broken. In some ways, we are loosing touch with our past in a way that is effecting a rather confused-appearing future. People often know what is best, as is obvious by the posts here. The bishops should be astute enough to realize that the faithful know what is theirs and wish to preserve it. May the Holy Spirit guide us all.

Fr. Joe

I too agree that the music was not the best. Although I am sure that they practiced long hard hours, the outcome was somewhat disappointing. It was hard to hear the choir, and the directress took far too long to give the pitches. The choice of melodies alienated most who were there to join in celebration. Perhaps the liturgical committee,(or those who put the liturgy together) should revisit how music is chosen for special sevices.

By the way, for those of you who are not fans of choirs, there are wonderful SATB plain chant versions of all parts of the liturgy which allows everyone to participate to the fullest.

(As they are probably all voluteers who gave of their time freely, perhaps we should not be too critical afterall.)


P.S. This written "Rumur was running wild in Windber, Beaverdale, J-twon etc. that Bishop John was suppose to wear a kobluk and veil...."
This is not true..the people in "the hills" are far more interested in celebrating Bishop John's new appointment than to second guess what he "should" be wearing.

Yes, he did. I remember the pilgrimage. He wore the white klobuk which was a gift from the monks of Holy Resurrection Monastery. Both he and Bishop GEORGE were vested in the "church" (actually the pavillion used for the pilgrimage). It was a memorable pilgrimage!

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Father, bless!

I was not aware that the vestments Met. Basil wore were Met. Judson's, but there is a "rightness" in it. As I have often said, I firmly believe that the reason God called Met. Judson to the Home Office was to give us a powerful intercessor. May his vestments be to Met. Basil as Elijah's mantle was to Elisha.


As for vesting the bishop in the church, you remarked that it takes a certain amount of manpower. Let us also note that the process is facilitated if the bishop is of relatively short stature, and there are some nice tall priests & deacons to help out.

In Christ,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com