www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Bishop JOHN's Consecration, etc.

"The choice of melodies alienated most who were there to join in celebration. Perhaps the liturgical committee,(or those who put the liturgy together) should revisit how music is chosen for special sevices."


The solution is quite simple: sing Prostopinije and chuck the operetta thang altogether! Everyone knows our plainchant and everyone would be able to participate fully and with gusto. No more temples with passive spectators.

BRING BACK PROSTOPINIJE AND LET THE PEOPLE SING!

Unfortunately, the irony in all of this is that the director of the choir is also the director of Parma's cantor institute. With this in mind, prostopinije won't have a chance. Eternal Memory!

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

JThur,
Ditto that thought for the entire Metropolia if John Thompson continues to be "thire man" in charge of liturgical chant. Thank "Boha" that
the Subcarpathian Rusyn Prostopinije still sutvives in Karpats'ka-Rus' although ironically only among the Rusyn Orthodox parishes under the Moscow Patriarchate. It seems the Uniate Rusyns are becoming Ukrainianized in Transcarpathia and won't make it their priority to save Prostopinije and the Slovakized Uniate Rusyns in Eastern Slovakia will definitely NOT foster love for Rusyn Prostopinije as well!!

Ung-Certez

Joe m'dear,

The Metropolitan Cantor Institute in Pittsburgh is most welcoming. While most of the participants hail from the Archeparchy, a few students come from Passaic, one stalwart from Van Nuys, and at least three of us from Parma.


For me, the choral vs. Prostopinije thing goes beyond tradition or musical taste. The liturgy is the work of the people. Communal prayer is like a great rope. Each of us add our little strands to it as it rises to God. I can't fully "add my strand" when it's a choral prayer (unless I know it). Mebbe the cord that gets spun is more elegant, but I'd rather help spin a strong, plain hempen rope than sit back & admire a dainty silken cord. (I'm certain of which one I want to hang onto in case of a flood...) The people belong to the bishop, and the bishop belongs to the people. I came to Parma on Wednesday to "add my strand." To pray for my new bishop. So did lots of other folks.

I dunno if what we're seeing is an extension of the immigrant ghetto mentality that says that something outside of our tradition must be better than our "shabby common" music - that trained voices singing polyphony are more respectable than everybody singing plain chant. The Latins got over that - I think it's time we did too.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

We have the likes of John Vernoski and J. Michael Thompson to thank for working hard to bring back our people's chant to where it belongs.

Time for the r�gime ancien to step down and let prostopinije reclaim its rightful throne!

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Sharon,

Thanks. I know about the Metropolitan Cantor Institute. I had a wonderful opportunity to meet Michael Thompson and learn of the wonderful things being done for our chant. Unfortunately, I am in too many programs as it is.

When it comes to being a director of another cantor institute and never enlisting the services of cantors (and the use of prostopinije) the set-up is suspect. On such a glorious and important occasion for the people of Parma, the 'people' had to remain mostly as passive spectators. This was an absolute shame. I apologize for being blunt and up front about this issue, especially on this thread's topic, but I was hoping that I wasn't the only person present who noticed how odd it was to be in our main church and see so many mouths shut. It seemed like something wonderful was taken away. Brrrrrr.

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J Thur:
[QB]We have the likes of John Vernoski and J. Michael Thompson to thank for working hard to bring back our people's chant to where it belongs.

Time for the r�gime ancien to step down and let prostopinije reclaim its rightful throne!"


You make it sound as though it is Prostopinije vs. choral music. This is not the case...as I mentioned in an earlier post, there EXISTS an entire liturgy of plain chant using SATB harmonies. There are choirs out there who are using it with great success. It is a win win situation. The people sing along WITH the choir and the harmonies are beautiful. I'm sorry if your experiences with a choir have been tainted. Don't condemn ALL choirs. It is the choice of the director/directress to use or not use certain melodies, sometimes they make mistakes.

I have also heard many a cantor who have gone astray and sang melodies that no one in the congregation knew. This is just as bad as all choral music. (Thompson has been known to do this on an occasion or two.)

The issue is with planning. When all parties sit down at the table, a give and take has to take place.

It is also possible for some cantors to THINK they are singing the right melody, when what comes out of their mouths bears no resemblance to it. Some people don't hear pitches accurately, so they can't reproduce them. I don't think it has to be a case of "Prostopinije vs. choral music." Why not do both. You are getting into some common areas of disagreement in church music in every denomination. For example, do we have mediocre music and let everyone put in their two-cents-worth, or do we go for excellence since God deserves nothing less? Do we prefer a beautiful and well-performed choral arrangement, or uncle Al bellowing off-key and ruining worship for everyone within hearing? Also, well-meaning choir directors naturally want to do special music for special occasions. The intention is good, but can lead to overdoing it and completely leaving out the congregation. With all the visiting dignitaries, the choir director in this instance may have felt the visitors wouldn't know Prostopinije, anyway. But I completely agree that music doesn't have to be an either/or situation with choir and congregation. You are right about good planning making all the difference.

"You make it sound as though it is Prostopinije vs. choral music."

Not really. I would have to agree that an SATB choir singing Prostopinije would be a better solution. At least the people can join in. But monopolizing everything using floral "choir" arrangements gets too overbearing. Rococo melodies don't lead people in prayer; they just sound "pretty."

Assuming that the guests won't know the melodies underestimates the ease of how people can pick up our music if done correctly and in sync. I've been to ecumenical gatherings where our chant was chosen because it was the easiest for all to pick up and join in. This is a strong point of our music. However, if we continue shying away from utilizing this we will definitely lose our ability to sing altogether. Having choir music that NOBODY can sing is even a bigger problem, and this is the point I wish to make. When the people DID sing prostopinije (it was what they actually knew!) the foundations of the temple moved.

John is right, planning is needed. Liturgy is work, no? If it wasn't work than we would call it "entertainment" and let someone else speak (or sing) on our behalf since that would be the easy route. It takes effort and team cooperation.

(As for singing melodies the people don't know ... I'd suggest teaching them and giving them the music before wingdinging it. It does work. Most of our parishioners didn't know what a Samohlasen tone was a few years back. Today, they are famailiar with it as much as the melodies sung at Sunday liturgy. With time and carful instruction the people can learn it, especially the children. We have to be more careful where we spend our efforts. If we don't "teach our children well" (sound like a song I once knew) we will have absolutely no-thing in the future. It only takes a little effort and no excuses. Can you imagine if all our parishes actually celebrated full vespers and matins with the proper tones for several years? Can you imagine if none of our parishes did so? I think the answer is obvious.)

(The solution to cantors doing their own interpretation? Have a schola of a few people who sing with the cantor. It prevents personal interpretations of melodies and maintains a better tempo because assistant voices behind the cantor's ears keeps him/her in check and the cantor doesn't get exhausted. It does work and is a big help.)


If the cathedral isn't taking a leadership position on our chant then each individual parish is at the mercy of local cantors. A role model is needed, and what better place to lead than at the cathedral of each eparchy where are liturgical chant can enjoy the protection, preservation and promotion it deserves? If it can't enjoy the 3 P's then forget it. Any sensible person will see the problems that come from not attending to something so critical as the medium of worship for so many years.

Way so sorry again for getting way off topic. I apologize. Maybe a new thread should be started? I don't want to cloud the actual joy that was present on that day. It was nice to see so many smiling faces.

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

All the suggestions are good ideas. As a musician who plays in a Roman Rite parish, I am just suggesting we give the choir director the benefit of the doubt. I don't know the choir director who was at the consecration, and he/she is not here to defend his/her actions. But I do know that when someone asks why I did something a certain way, I often have to tell them that it was because the priest said to do it. So we musicians are not always calling the shots - or should I say Schotts bad pun intended.

Oh ByzanTN.....

Metropolitan Basil was baptized Myron. So on a well known feast day each year, Holy Myron makes Holy Myron.

Just thought you'd want to know.


Sharon

Sharon, you are too funny.
Charles

How wonderful it is to these thoughtful posts about our prostopinije! I am interested by the remarks on SATB arrangements of our melodies. Are these readily available? Are they on-line?

As to the situaion in the old, old country noted by UC: my experience is very limited, but also wildly positive.

In a two week period, I was at liturgies in Budapest, Mal'cov (up in the mountains north of Presov), Bratislava, and Prague. At Bratislava the Orthos was sung congregationally, then a choir led the liturgy singing SATB arrangements of the prostopinije which everyone could follow. Otherwise, in every case it was all pure prostopinije - totally familiar whether in Hungarian, Slovak, or Church Slavonic, and with far more of the repetoire used than in the US. So I find our propostopinije not only surviving, but thriving.

At Mal'cov we saw, on a weekday evening, a full church with all ages present. There were 10 altar boys serving, and a dozen school girls up front who were celebrating having just finished their exams. Everyone was chanted in full voice. The future seems blindingly bright.

It was a literally awesome experience, and I wanted to share this, admittedly limited, but very positive news.

djs

[ 07-13-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

[ 07-13-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

I'm sorry I must disagree with DJS. I have been to the Slovakized Divine Liturgies in both the Prjashev Cathedral and Kosice Cathedral and IT DOES NOT SOUND LIKE PROSTOPINIJE MELODIES when sung in another langauge other than Church Slavonic, as the original musical notation was written for the Church Slavonic language. So just as the Prostopinije is corrupted in Eastern Europe when it is translated into another language, so too is it corrupted when it is constantly being reworded in the English language. I do not have faith in the Ruthenian Metropolia because they are more interested in words instead of musical notation and this will lead to the end of the time-honored Subcarpathian-Rus' Prostopinije. "Vichnaja Pamjat!!!"

Ung-Certez

Dear UC:

I stipulate that my experience is very limited, but I can say that everyting that I heard was completely recognizable. With text (and no music) in front of me, it was wonderfully easy to particpate fully. I think that this is the litmus test. Were you unable to sing, or just unhappy with details of the rendering?

One thing that I especially liked was hearing the singing in the gritty and thoroughly un-bel canto sonority of old-country folk singing. Wow! I think that this is gone in the US, and our ears are probably too Western to accept that style. But this is what the prostopinije that I grew up with really sounded like. In that sense I think that the prostopinije that I heard sung in Slovakia and Hungarian has more authenticity than that sung in Church Slavonic here in the US.

Best Regards,
djs

[ 07-13-2002: Message edited by: djs ]