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Dear Agape,

Perhaps . . .

You're right!

Alex

Dear Alex, Diak, Agape, Christopher:

This thread is a perfect example of why education is needed. These groups do not seem to understand true Catholicity and they need education. As a good friend of mine, he attends St. Athanasius Anglican Use community in Boston, once said:

"The Catholic Church is like a great gothic Cathedral with many side altars. On each of these side altars there is a different rite or usage of the liturgy while at the center on the main altar is the faith we all share, the faith once for all delivered to the apostles."

Joe Zollars

+JMJ+

Another friend of mine has said in the past that he found the beuty and richness of the Tridentine Mass through the Orthodox Church. It seems that he went with a Russian History Class to St. George's Cathedral in Wichita for Divine Liturgy. He Said that he saw something at the Orthodox Liturgy that he just could not find in the NO Mass. Reverence and devotion. In an online discussion with an Orthodox priest, he was directed to seek out a Tridentine Mass when he told the priest that what he wanted was reverence and devotion.

This would seem to corrorborate Alex's original, and profound, statement that the Byzantine Liturgy is closer to the Tridentine Liturgy than the Novus Ordo Liturgy.

Joe zollars

Dear Joe,

"Profound?"

Remember, I'm diabetic too and have to watch out for the sweets, just like Orthoman

But a little once in a while can't hurt, can it?

You make an even more profound point here, Servus Dei, with your post on the multiliturgical Cathedral (actually I once had a dream just like this).

The other Rites of the Western Church, whether distinct Rites in and of themselves, or local variations of the Roman Rite, can ONLY be done within the Tridentine liturgical paradigm.

In other words, the Mozarabic Spanish Rite can only be performed with the "back to the people" etc. The same holds true for the other Rites.

So the Tridentine Rite always held the potential for the return of the other Western Rites, while the NO effectively prevents it.

The Orthodox-Tridentine connection is also seen in the fact that Orthodox Patriarchs didn't agree with Pope Paul's NO Rite at all.

Besides, I'm beginning to think that you are becoming more Orthodox . . . Don't get incensed!

Alex

[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Joe,

By the way, congratulations on acquiring a new Tridentine Saint in the person of Padre Pio this Sunday!

I understand he continued to celebrate the Tridentine Liturgy until his death.

Alex

+JMJ+

yes he did. There was a short while in which he faced the people but still said the Tridentine Liturgy. Many of us are very grateful for his canonization for in him we have a great man who literally shed his blood for the holy faith.

It is reported that the Masses he said would sometimes last for several hours.

Joe Zollars

"You make an even more profound point here, Servus Dei, with your post on the multiliturgical Cathedral (actually I once had a dream just like this)."

The multiplicity of rites in my opinion is an attestment to the unity of the Catholic faith and an attestment of how the Catholic faith is for everyone. Another way of looking at it is a bouquet of flowers. Each way of celebrating the Holy Liturgy (Tridentine, Anglican Use, Mozarabic, Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, etc.) are the flowers and the Holy faith is the Vase. The Seven Sacraments, especially the Eucharist, is the water that fills the vase and feeds the flowers.

"In other words, the Mozarabic Spanish Rite can only be performed with the "back to the people" etc. The same holds true for the other Rites."

This is indeed true. This is a very astute observation on your part.

"So the Tridentine Rite always held the potential for the return of the other Western Rites, while the NO effectively prevents it."

This is very true indeed. I hope the other rites will soon return to the Western Churches. I recently read that the Braga (Sp?) rite has been granted to several parishes and one Cathedral in Portugaul. I also know several High Church Anglicans, in England no less, that are petitioning Rome for the restoration of the Sarum Rite. I hope they are successful.

"The Orthodox-Tridentine connection is also seen in the fact that Orthodox Patriarchs didn't agree with Pope Paul's NO Rite at all."

I have heard that indeed.

"Besides, I'm beginning to think that you are becoming more Orthodox . . . Don't get incensed!"

Ha, ha, ha. Actually I do have a few Icons of Orthodox Saints. There is no need to alienate myself from an authentically apostolic Christian spiritual treasure trove. I like what the Orthodox have to say and do and I pray for the reunion of Rome and the East, but I do not think I could ever be Orthodox, except for small-o of course.

Joe Zollars

Joe,

Actually the Archdiocese of Braga has had uninterrupted use of the Bragan Rite. It has been awhile since I researched the Latin Rites but I believe the Bragan and Ambrosian Rites are obligatory in the Archdioceses of Braga and Milan respectively, with their use being optional in the other diocese of their provinces. The Mozarabic Rite is unfortunately confined to a chapel in the Cathedral of Toledo, although it was onced used by six other parishes in the Archdiocese as well as in the Cathedral of Salamanca.

Alex has mentioned, and I remeber reading elsewhere also, that Spain has been encouraged to reintergrate Mozarabic usages, which I believe the Bishops Conference has done by including many of the beautiful prefaces of the Mozarabic rite in the Novus Ordo Missal. (Another little known fact is that the Third Eucharistic Prayer is based on the Mozarabic one.) They have also reprinted the Mozarabic Missal and Office, although I am unsure what they intend to do with it. Perhaps they are planning on allowing indult Mozarabic parishes to form? I wonder how the Tridentine use people would feel about that?

In Christ,
Lance

"The Orthodox-Tridentine connection is also seen in the fact that Orthodox Patriarchs didn't agree with Pope Paul's NO Rite at all."

True enough, however they dislike the Tridentine Rite as well, considering it a product of post- schism Scholastic and Medieval thought which they reject. Almost every Orthodox bishop and scholar outside the Antiochians have roundly criticized the allowance of the Tridentine and Anglican Rites by the Antiochians. The only Latin Liturgies they consider acceptable for use by Orthodox are pre-schism ones. And since they don't have access to the Vatican's manuscripts to recreate the Old Roman or Gallican Rites they say no go, French Orthodox use of the Liturgy of St. Germain notwithstanding.

Just an interesting aside to my Tridentine friends, the Tridentine Rite while certainly being able to trace its lineage to the Old Roman Rite is different from it because it is a fusion of the Roman and Gallican Rites. All the ritual splendor and perfusion is inherited from the Gallican Rite which got this from Eastern influence. The Old Roman Rite was very austere and sober in comparison. Symbolism did not exceed functionality, conservancy of movement was a premium. So if the Tridentine and Byzantine Rites resemble one another it is because the Tridentine Rite borrowed many usages from the Gallican Rite which in turn borrowed them from the East.

In Christ,
Lance

[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

I have just caught up with this thread since I've been in rural southwestern Iowa where there is no internet access in hotels save through long distance at $1 per minute. But now I'm in Des Moines..... "Free at last, free at last...."

I think that in the posts there has been a confusion between what the Thomists call "substantial" and "accidental" elements in these discussions.

In terms of liturgy, the 'substantial' elements are the Gospel, the 'blessings', the proclamation of the Creed, the consecration (anamnesis) and the reception of communion. These are absolutely core according to the mind of the Church through the Councils. Other elements, like priest-position, music, 'adornments'like vestments, servers, etc. are considered 'accidentals', (Latin: 'accidere' = 'they happen'). The pre-break Church constituted these core elements with the understanding that they were the commonality among all the Apostolic communities. The 'accidentals' were understood as legitimate variations within ecclesial communities in response to needs. (E.g., pussy willows in the northern Slavonia as opposed to palms which steadfastly refused to grow in Ukraine. And the 'teplota' which was used to un-freeze/un-slush the wine of the Eucharist.)

My point is: some of the traditionalist RCs have not done their homework on these issues and have established one or other RC yardstick as the measure of 'orthodoxy'. Sometimes us Easterns (of whatever stripe) fit their parameters; other times we don't. We use incense; OK with them. We use icons; sorta OK with them. We sometimes use (for them strange languages; OK. We have LOTS of books of ritual; OK for them. We have all sorts of vesture for the clergy and altar servers: Great for them! We use candles not only on the altar, but also in the peoples' hands: Wow! Great for them.

But, we also have priests who make love to their wives and beget children. EEEEEEEEKKKKKK! They have wives!!! EEEEEEEEKKKKKK! We also have a primary focus on the parish community/family (including our priests and their wives and families) and consider the diocese as an adjunct to the parish. EEEEEEKKKKK! Hierarchy is critical to being the 'Church'!!

Traditionally, for Easterns, our concept of Church goes from the bottom up. I.e., one of our parish guys is now a bishop! Yeee-Haw!!! Bring out the grills, bring in the dance-band, bring out the wine (or beer): dance, eat, sing, celebrate. The Lord has given special graces to this particular guy who is part of US.

Traditionally in the West (at least lately- the past thousand years or so), the bishop is some sort of 'grace-filled ruler', who, perforce of his office, has been granted powers OVER the community, not as a result of being WITHIN it and being brought to a leadership position within the community.

This is a fundamental difference in understanding of the role of the bishop and the clergy in the Church.

The SSPX community and its allies, are operating from the latter-day Western perspective. Fine for them and their adherents. But it is in total opposition to what we Easterns have lived and understood since Apostolic times.

So, at the risk of having grenades sent to my home, I have to say: We Easterns should recognize that these geo-political struggles taking place in the Western Church are NOT important for us. While Eastern Catholics are comforted and strengthened by our communion with the Roman Patriarch (and wish we could be in communion with all the legitimate traditional Eastern patriarchs), we do ourselves a distinct disservice in trying to accommodate all the variations of the Roman/Western Church.

In sum: Eastern Christians are legitimate followers of the Apostles and the Apostolic Church. We have NO need to accommodate anybody else based upon their objections to their birth-right community. If someone as an individual wants to come to us as a Church community, then he/she must take us as we are, with all our problems and faults and failings. But he/she must NOT ever presume to judge us according to some yardstick that is derived from their former community. And, he/she MUST understand the this is not a "transfer" from one rite to another within the "Catholic" Church under the Pope.

This is a substantial move from one Church to Another Church. Although Eastern Catholics cherish and will fight for communion with the See of Rome, it does NOT mean that we accept the status of being "just another rite". We are CHURCH. (As a wag once propounded: "Are you in communion with the Pope of Rome?" The answer was: "No, he is in communion with us.")

For the RCs who are not willing to accede to this understanding (and the documents of union are there to prove it), then I suggest a bus ticket to get out of town. We are not stations on the Western 'Underground Railroad' to liturgical freedom. We Easterns have enough problems accommodating ourselves to diaspora issues (just like our Orthodox brethren), and we don't need to be used as pawns in Western inter-necine warfare.

If someone comes knocking on the door in search of a better or more efficacious pathway: Welcome!!! Come in and try us out.

If someone comes knocking on the door in search of a way to combat his/her former community, then have some bread, cheese and wine, and be on your way.

Harsh? Perhaps. But there is no reason to foment disquiet in our community in order to serve one's other purposes and motives. We have enough problems of our own (e.g., language, customs, multi-ethnic practices, liturgical customs, interpersonal relationships, etc.)

As the T-shirts in Washington DC say: "Thank you for visiting; now go home".

Blessings!

Dear Joe,

Thank you!

It is a privilege to know someone like you who is so loyal to his traditions and is such a great ambassador of this Board and a defender of its good name on the internet!

Alex

Dear Lance,

You really know your stuff, Big Guy!

You should consider active Church ministry .

My wife's grandfather wrote the book, "Epiclesis" where he makes exactly the same point with liturgical illustrations of the Gallican and other liturgies.

However, what about the Moscow Synod's version of the Tridentine Liturgy and the "correction" of the Book of Common Prayer within the context of the "Rite of St Tikhon?"

Both are used by the Antiochians and I have acquaintances who are priests in both Rites.

They also take on other Orthodox who challenge them on their use of these Rites.

And even within the Antiochian Church, there are Eastern Rite Orthodox Priests who don't like the Western Rites and try to "poach" their priests. I heard this myself at their Toronto Conference.

Frankly, pre-Schism or not, there are Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who are just plain "Eastern chauvinists" as Met. Andrew Sheptytsky wrote to Bl. Leonid Fyodorov and advised him to guard against this attitude.

The Ambrosian Rite of Milan is also heavily influenced by the Eastern Churches. Scholars there also found out that that liturgy's references to the "Pope" actually refer to the Archbishop of Milan!

While the Mozarabic tradition is encouraged, one professor and specialist in Mozarabic liturgy whose articles I've read has publicly stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE to celebrate it integrally within the context of the NO.

I remember coming with a parish priest to my university chapel where he was invited to celebrated an Eastern Catholic liturgy.

The RC's forgot that we "do it" with our faces to God .

It was the first (and please, last) time I attended an Eastern Catholic liturgy with the priest facing the people.

As Dr. John says, "EEEEEKKKK!"

Have a nice day!

Alex

The Mozarabic Rite is unfortunately confined to a chapel in the Cathedral of Toledo, although it was onced used by six other parishes in the Archdiocese as well as in the Cathedral of Salamanca.


When I was in Spain last year, I found ready access to the revised Mozarabic liturgical books in every large catholic bookstore I went into. Also, the six parishes mentioned still use the Mozarabic Liturgy. The Cathedral of Toledo now has a daily celebration in the main church (it used to be Saturdays only in the chapel). I did'nt get to Salamanca, but I understand it is used at least once a Sunday there.

The Mozarabic Rite is alive and well!

Michael
Alex has mentioned, and I remeber reading elsewhere also, that Spain has been encouraged to reintergrate Mozarabic usages, which I believe the Bishops Conference has done by including many of the beautiful prefaces of the Mozarabic rite in the Novus Ordo Missal. (Another little known fact is that the Third Eucharistic Prayer is based on the Mozarabic one.) They have also reprinted the Mozarabic Missal and Office, although I am unsure what they intend to do with it. Perhaps they are planning on allowing indult Mozarabic parishes to form? I wonder how the Tridentine use people would feel about that?

In Christ,
Lance[/QB][/QUOTE]

Sarum,

Would that be the authentic Mozarabic rite? I remember reading that someone said it has been 'modernized' after Vatican II.

I believe in Milan the same thing has happened to the Ambroisan rite, and there is an indult in the Archdiocese for a certain parish to use the ancient Ambrosian rite. I could be wrong though.

In Jesu et Maria,
Justin

Dear Justin,

Happy Old Calendar St Justin the Philosopher's Day!

14 years ago today I graduated with my Ph.D.!

As I wipe away the tears . . .

The Mozarabic Liturgy has truly been "modernized" and it really isn't what it was historically. But at least it's there, I suppose . . .

It is the old Gothic Rite, the rite that was once used throughtout norther and central Europe. It was also used, in different forms, by the Arians.

I have a copy at home that was translated by a liturgical specialist I know. The main thing I with my untrained eyes notice about it is the number of various propers that one would need to celebrate it (properly ).

There seems to be a differen festal proper at each and every turn. The actual text of the liturgy seems small, but is more than filled out with the many variable components.

The Milanese Rite is actually more widespread and does truly have similarities with the Byzantine Rite with many invocations of the Holy Trinity.

In actual fact, Pope Paul VI and Pope Pius XI were both Milanese Rite Catholics, and did not belong to the Latin Rite!

Alex