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Gregorian: Yes and no. The Dominican rite is distinct from the Roman, but they are very very close. I have a Dominican Missal at home (on another continent) somewhere, and offhand the only major differences I can remember are that there is no Judica me, no Last Gospel and the name of St Dominic is inserted into the Confiteor and perhaps the Canon too. That's all i remember offhand...

in Domino,

Edward

In my Dominican Missal there is a Last Gospel (Matt 9:1-8).

There is no Judica Mea and there St. Dominic's name is in the confiteor.

Joe Zollars

Edward,

Here is a website with the ordinary of the Mass for the Dominicans: http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/dominican/mass_ordinary.htm

As you can see from that website, if it is accurate, then it is different from the Roman Rite in many areas.

In Jesu et Maria,
Justin

Does anybody have any such websites for the texts of the various Rites of the western Church. I am particularly looking for the Mozarabic, Ambrosian, and Bragan Missals, but would appreciate any that you have.

Joe Zollars

You might try this site for starters:

Western Rite Liturgy Page [neosoft.com]

Fr. Deacon James

+JMJ+

I just received an email saying that Fr. Rifan is now to become coadjutor bishop of the Apostolic Administration of St. John Maria Vianney. This is the Campos priests who came back into communion with Rome. Fr. Rifan is a priest of this order and he is only fifty years old. This means that the Apostolic Administration of St. John Maria Vianney is safe until at least 2027. What wonderful news for all us traditionalists.

Joe Zollars

Yes indeed. Maybe this will send a message to the SSPX also.

Perhaps reunion is closer than we thought. Oh Lord please let the day come soon.

Joe Zollars

I have a question for the latin catholics:

I like to collect Missals, the oldest I have is a Spanish one that was brought secretly in 1947, and it's beauteful, it has all the Propium, as well as the Ordinarium (in latin with the Spanish translation) and the Old Calendar. It's absolutely tridentine and conservative.

Yesterday I received another Spanish Missal but this is from 1969 after or during Vatican II. It's now entirely in Spanish (the latin language was supressed) but it still has the Old Liturgy with the Introitus, Greaduale, Tract, etc (some prayers are now shorter, but they still exist there).
My question is: when did the tridentine liturgy was supressed completely and the mass changed? was it after Vatican II or during Vatican II?
The Missal states that the Council had stated that the Roman Rite was translated and renewed, but the changes reflected in that Missal as not as radical as those that can be seen in the modern western church (no introit, no gradual, no tract, no secret prayers, no misticism at all...9

There were several transitional Missals between the Last Tridentine (1962) and the Pauline Mass (1970). 1965 is the most signifigant.

Don't let these transitional Missals fool you, they were not formally approved by the Vatican. They are not as beutiful as the Ancient Latin Mass.

Joe Zollars

You might find the following of interest. About a year ago, some Traditionalist Catholics showed up at our Byzantine Mission, with rosary beads in hand, and heads veiled - the head veils were only on the females, of course As they were leaving Divine Liturgy, one of the gentlemen said, "why do you people get to have what you want, when we are denied The Mass?" They were angry, hostile, and seemed to have no understanding that we belong to a different rite that needs no permission from the local Roman bishop to exist. Reasoning with them was impossible, and their degree of ignorance was unbelievable. To them, there is no church outside of the Tridentine Rite. I don't know where they came from, but I was surely glad to see them leave.

ByzanTN,

Well I am a traditionalist at heart, but I am not really like the ones you mention, and I am interested in attending an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy, but was under the impression that there were no churches in Tennessee. Where is the misson? I promise I won't act like that.

I apologize if they offended you. However from my experience Latin traditionalists (not the crazy ones) view the Eastern Liturgies as traditional liturgies developed organicly unlike Novus Ordo.

Maybe they are bitter because the bishops of Nashville and Knoxville are not granting the indult.

In Jesu et Maria,
Justin

[ 07-01-2002: Message edited by: Gregorian ]

Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Mission is located in Seymour, TN - approximately 15 miles south of Knoxville. The mission was formally established by Metropolitan Judson shortly before his death. It has a bi-ritual priest and shares a building with Holy Family Catholic Church (Latin Rite). Divine Liturgies are on the 1st Saturday of the month at 5:30pm, and the 3rd Sunday at 3pm. Feel free to e-mail me privately for directions.

I know from direct experience as someone who has attended a fair share of SSPX chapels pre-schism, and has worked with several ex-SSPX families since then, that the sense of praestantia ritus latinae (the Latin Tridentine Rite is first in honor and dignity among the ritual traditions) is definitely present and strong with many of them. This will unfortunately be a stumbling block for many in being able to fully appreciate the riches of the Byzantine tradition. We must pray that they will be truly open to the fulness of tradition, beyond the post-Trent and counter-Reformation ideals that seem to be their driving force.

No, the Franciscans never had a rite of their own. St. Francis specifically mentioned that the priest-friars celebrate the Roman Rite. The Dominicans placed the water and wine in the chalice at the beginning of the Mass. When turning to the congregation to say "Dominus Vobiscum", he stepped asside so as not to turn his back to the Blessed Sacrament. From the Sanctus till after Communion an additional candle was lit on the "Gospel (left ) side. During a Solemen High Mass, the main celebrant had a gremeal ( a sort of apron ) spread over his knees.

I grew up in the Latin Rite (some of my relatives were Byzantine rite, so I changed rites 23 years ago). We had Carmelites in my parish. It was pre- Vatican II, so they had their own rite too. Same thing. They put the water and wine in the chalice at the beginning of the Mass. Psalm 42 was not receited. Because they receited it during the Divine Office. After the Consecratio, the priest spread his arms in the form of a cross. During High Mass, the Sanctus was split, and the remainded sung after the Consecration, because the Canon is shorter. They receited the "Hail Holy Queen" just before the last Gospel. During the week, kneeling on the top step of the altar, During the week after Easter, and on Sunday, he stood on the next to last step with his hands in the "orans" position.

The Norbertines also had their own liturgy.

One day, a Dominican and a Passionist came to my parisht. I had the priviledge of serving Mass in THREE RITES on one day!!!!