www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Prayer In response to questions re: Old believers

Dear Brethren: The Hierarch for the Old believers in the United States is: + Archbishop Sofrony based in Gervais, Oregon..(He ABP. Of U.S. Canada and Australia..in union with Bela Krinitsa Hierarchy...Metropolitan Leontij of Romania....Also: Metropolitan Alimpij is from Moscow...still there is another Hierarchy in Novozybkov, Russia(Not Bela Krinitsa) under Archbishop Alexander Kalinin...Old Orthodox Archdiocese of Novozybkov...this in response to some asking if Old believers in Oregon are still being served by Mt. Angel Abbey...no, we are not with Rome and have our own hierarchy..however, the Abbey has allowed one of the monks to have an Old believer Museum on the Abbey grounds...Also: yes, we may be long hair monastic (s) and do not bathe...but I assure you none of us have ever had lice as one of your folks posted implied....we do bathe, sort of sponge bath...a Monastery is being founded in Montana, and we are in North Dakota....all of us here in ND are converts to Old believer Rite (from Rome) we still love Rome and it breaks our hearts to see all scandal with sexual abuse...We had to bar our doors at night when we were in Novus Ordo Seminaries and monasteries....not all, and I dare say for the last 3O years, thousands of vocations were turned away because they did not go along with the "agenda" of modern seminaries...we are not bitter and ask all to pray for Priests...yes, even the ones who molested those children....It is better they had a millstone around their necks and were drowned..this is what Our Lord said and how true....but let us pray for their conversion...most RC or Latin Priests we have known all our lives (we are in our 6O's) are fine, exemplary, holy men of God...we did not convert due to the sins of the priests...we converted because we feel we have found the truth...we old believers may be separatists to a degree, but that does not mean we do not have love for all faiths, and yes, we do have a great love for holy father: Pope John Paul II. We cannot judge people....we can judge their sins...we know what is right and what is wrong..moral theology teaches us this...so let us pray for conversions...let us pray and fast for souls, yes even those priests who have fallen to the abyss of hell so to speak...I truly believe St. Faustina's revelations of Mercy do not mean...Mercy and commit sin, not a presumption of Mercy...but because of that great Mercy, we are converted daily NOT TO SIN...I am not very educated by the standards of the world, but I pray that finally Rome is doing something about vocations...there are no vocations due to what I mentioned...no young man will be accepted as priest if Sister Liberal and the diocesan commision find him: "rigid", does not accept new age philosophy, engage in enneagram, etc....we have received in last 6 months: 1,OOO vocation inquiries and who from: all ex-romans and they too were expelled from seminary as they would not go along....the vocations are there....time to clean house, but always with love and charity and yes, PRAY FOR SOULS, PRAY FOR THE GREATEST OF THE SINNERS....Isus (Jesus) Precious Blood can and will convert the greatest of sinners...never accept sin.....but always love and uplift and help the sinner....With love to all Faiths: Act. Abbot Fr. Matthew and Brotherhood of Holy nativity of the Mother of God Skete....ND Bogorodeetsa@hotmail.com Pray for us as new novices are coming soon....we don't have funds to build so prayer is needed....May Isus, Bogoroditsa (Theotokos), St. Avvakum, and All our God Bearing Saints Grace you and sustain you....

May I ask, dear brother, what the brethren use for prayer? Do you use the Erie parish prayer book? (Old Orthodox Prayer Book). I have this, use it for our family prayer, but did not realize there were others out there. This book is far from complete for vsenoschnie, stikhiry, etc. and other services and liturgical texts. Just curious if there were other readily available O.B. texts or if you relied on Jordainville/ROCOR or the Old Calendar Greeks (Holy Transfiguration) for texts. I am very taken with the Old Believer liturgical traditions.

We had several priests in our hierarchy, including Father Eustachy Susalev of blessed memory, who served several parishes in the Old Ritual under the omophorion of Blessed Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky but I believe most were liquidated by the godless Communists. From which hierarchy did you mention you were attached to?
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

Dear Avvakum,

May St Avvakum, St Ambrose and all the Holy Old Believer Martyrs and Confessors protect you and your Church always!

Does your community sell any Old Believer devotional items? Icons of St Avvakum?

Alex

What are "Old Believers"?

Sorry, just had to know...

Thanks!

Dear Discerning,

"Old Believers" are Orthodox Christians who were excommunicated from the Orthodox Church of Russia in the 17th century in the time of Patriarch Nicon of Moscow for their refusal to give up their particular rites that had developed throughout Russia until that time.

For example, they cross themselves with two fingers using the Jesus Prayer when they do so. They join the thumb and last two fingers of the hand in honour of the Trinity, they then extend the index finger and slightly bend the middle finger - in other words they basically use the Christogram or the way the Priest gives his blessing.

There are other differences, such as their practice of receiving Communion three times when they approach the Holy Mysteries, prostrating at the "It is truly meet" prayer, making entrance and departure bows, saying the "Lord have mercy" or "Alleluia" twice (in honour of Christ's two Natures) where we say them three times etc.

St Avvakum, canonized by them, suffered martyrdom for criticizing Tsar Alexis to his son, Tsar Theodore's face!

Russian aristocracy, monks and others were tortured and burned for their faith.

Old Believers became "priestless" when the last priests of the pre-Niconian times died out and there are millions who continue as "bezpopovtsy" to this day.

Avvakum has discussed all this above.

The bela krinitsa group has priests and bishops and have glorified all their martyrs and confessors as saints, which they have included in their beautiful calendar.

Alex

Alex,

Do you happen to know when St. Hieromartyr Avvakum (Petrovich) is commemorated on the calendar of the Old Believers?

Also, I didn't know that the Old Believers received the Communion three times! I did know about the two-finger sign of the cross, the prostrations, the double alleluias and the entrance and departure bows.

I read in a book that in most Orthodox churches, the priest has the option to cross himself with two fingers like the Old Believers, but as we see, most probably do not. I am amazed by the richness of the symbolism of the two-fingered Sign of the Cross, as related in the back of the Old Believer prayer book. I'd love to see an ikon of St. Hieromartyr Avvakum someday hanging in my ikon corner, and I also want to get a lestovka. Do you happen to know where to find the latter item? The only place I've really seen one for sale on-line is at the Staroobryadchestvo Lavka in Russia...

Yours in Christ,

+Timothy, servant of God and future monk

P.S. I've decided and resolved that I wish to join the brotherhood of Holy Transfiguration Skete in Michigan. Pray for my vocation!

Dear Timothy,

St Avvakum is commemorated on 14 April, Old Style.

I have an icon of St Avvakum I could send you. It is packed away right now, but I'll be unpacking in a few weeks' time. Kindly remind me next month!

As for the lestovkas, if you contact the people at Holy Nativity Old Rite Orthodox Church in Pennsylvania, they will direct you to a gentleman who makes excellent leather Lestovkas.

They wear their Lestovkas on their left elbows. They also wear a woven belt around their waists when attending Church, as well as the embroidered shirt made from the "kryzmo" of their baptism.

They carry with them a pillow that they place on the floor when they make prostrations so that the right hand with which we make the Sign of the Cross is not soiled.

The Christogram is truly deeply meaningful when making the Sign of the Cross as it represents, symbolically, Christ Himself.

We shall all pray for your monastic sojourn and struggle!

Please pray for us!

Alex

Djakuja, Alex!

I will indeed ask about the ikon of St. Avvakum next month, and thank you for your offer of generousity to me a poor sinner!

I have seen a picture of the embroidered "poyas" belt that the Old Believers wear, as well as their rubashki (shirts).

I am also aware of the podruchnik' which you mention. I myself always prostrate on a rug that is in front of my ikon corner, for the same reason.

Thank you for your prayers, and I assure you that you and everyone here is and will remain in my prayers...

In Christ,

+Timothy, servant of God

Dear Timothy,

The Old Believers of the Belaya Krinitsa jurisdiction do write icons of their saints, but they can be expensive.

They've also recently glorified as a saint for their Church St Ambrose, the Greek bishop who joined with them in the last century and ordained priests for them.

God bless,

Alex

Dear Friends, when discussing the Old Believers don't forget about the lestovka, or their own distinctive chotky for prayer. Also the men and women are seated in separate locations within the church, and the men are not to be clean shaven. The rubashka is expected to be worn for all church services and festivals.

They also have an embroidered cloth or small pillow for which to place their head when making the many prostrations the Old Believer rule of prayer calls for. In some Old Believer parishes non-Old Believers are not allowed in the nave but must remain in the narthex.

Also cast copper icons and crosses produced by the "lost wax technique" are venerated by some Old Believers like conventional written icons. In fact during the anti-Avvakum days, it was illegal to posses one of these copper icons as they were considered to be diagnostic of Old Believer families. Many of the Old Believer cemetaries had these icons over graves. I myself wear an Old Believer baptismal cross that has Psalm 67, 'Let God Arise' on the back in Old Slavonic.

The Old Slavonic in use with the Old Believers is slightly different from post-Nikonian Old Slavonic...for example the Old Believer usage is Slava..i nyni i prisno i vo viki vikom instead of viki vikov.

Also one group of the Old Believers, in Erie, Pennsylvania, the same parish that produces the wonderful Old Believer prayer book, is in some sort of communion with the ROCOR.

Some of the bezpopovtsy have fallen into some strange variations through the years. Actually there was a Greek Catholic priest, Fr. Eustachy Susalev, of blessed memory, who was a Russian Catholic priest who used the Old Ritual and was a contemporary of +blessed Leonid Fedorov.

Dear Diak,

Yes, we know all that

But we restrained ourselves since this is a thread dedicated to prayer!

The Erie parish is in FULL communion with ROCOR.

Also, the neck Cross you mention is not so much "Old Believer" but was normative, at one point, for one and all.

Alex