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francisg,

How about your most recent post in the thread on the Immaculate Conception? You take a bit of Eastern theology that you don�t completely understand and than say that you are free to add to it and make it into something else. What you really need is to study and pray what the Church Fathers taught on these things before attempting to rewrite our theology.

Admin

Anthony,

Thanks for your post. I have not questioned the sincerity of francisg�s participation in this Forum. I have only commented that he ought not to recast our theology into something more acceptable to his liking. I have also specifically stated in this thread that the dogmatic elements on the topic under discussion are the same for both East and West (a point I have repeatedly made over the past five years this forum has existed).

If francisg (or anyone who is a Western Christian) is truly interested in learning about the East and how we live out the common life in Christ they will first ask questions to learn about how we live this life. They will not skip that important step and immediately proceed to rewriting our theology.

Admin

Anthony,

Thank you. I seriously thought I was defending Cantor Joe against PaxT�s accusation of heresy, while maintaining that the East understands the nature of Purgatory different from the West.

All of a sudden, Admin, God bless him, charged me with reinterpreting the Eastern Tradition.

Admin,
Sorry for the misunderstanding. As you suggested, I reread my post, and for the life of me I simply COULD NOT see where I was reinterpreting the Eastern Tradition on what the West calls Purgatory. Thus, I kept asking you to give me an example, not out of intransigence, but genuine confusion.

Hope we�re on the straight and narrow again, Admin, our discussion on the Immaculate Conception aside.

In Christ always, God bless you both abundantly.

Admin,

You are completely right, �I do not completely understand.� That is why if YOU reread my post, one of the first things I wrote was, �Is it POSSIBLE to understand�� I was presenting my view hoping to see if it was acceptable. It�s like presenting a paper to your teacher to be corrected, and I think I introduced it in exactly that fashion. I really did not/do not know where you are coming from. I was simply proposing, not imposing, unless in this forum, to propose anything is automatically construed as imposing it.

In Christ always

Did anyone else see the Luther movie?

Not yet, but I plan to.

Dear PaxTecum,

Yes, I don't know how old you are, but I suspect I knew the matter you raised before you entered high school.

Unfortunately, neither you nor my friend ZoeTheodora nor even Francisg have made any effort to understand Eastern perpsectives on Eschatology.

That is not necessarily your fault, you are quick to want to defend Catholicism - I take that as a virtue, not a fault.

But if you suggest that because the East does not accept the terminology and Western theology of Purgatory - that it somehow denies prayer for the dead or that those who died without being fully reconciled to God don't need our prayers etc. - then you are wrong and are attacking an Eastern Christian caricature of your own making.

Please show us where Cantor Joseph Thur, someone who has dedicated his life to our Church, someone who has studied and worked a great deal in theology and liturgy and someone who has remained faithful to the Church in the midst of personal cost and suffering for it - please show us how he is "heretical."

You are simply being vicious here and I would ask you, in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Most Holy Mother of God, to apologise to our Cantor.

If you offend Cantor Joseph, you offend us all.

Alex

Dear ZoeTheodora,

We are not talking about "objective truths" here but of theological perspectives.

BOTH East and West hold that souls after death who need purification (and that is the majority of us) are helped by prayers and the Divine Liturgy (the "Mass" - so that some of the Latins here don't think I'm denying it because I don't use the Latin terminology).

What you are doing is equating the "objective reality" of the substance of eschatology (on which there is no disagreement between East and West please) and saying that since the East doesn't accept "Purgatory" as a term coming out of a Latin perspective, then it must deny all that Purgatory represents.

You made the same suggestion on the Immaculate Conception.

If the East doesn't accept the "objective reality" of that doctrine, then it MUST be because it rejects that the Mother of God was sinless.

Have you not been around during our discussions of this very point?

PaxTecum accused me of being an "unlettered Catholic" because he imputed an understanding of indulgences to me that is untrue.

Our Latin brothers and sisters here should make some effort to learn the Eastern perspective before shooting from the lip here.

You may not like the Eastern perspective on eschatology. I don't like the Western perspective.

But both are valid - and objectively so. The Catholic Church is not Latin, but Catholic. It contains within it a plethora of theological schools of thought. They all represent valid and ancient Catholic cultures.

What we are experiencing here is a cultural conflict, I suppose . . .

But rather than impute false motives and other matters, as you and PaxTecum have done - and I do believe he has sinned in wrongly accusing Cantor Joseph of "heresy" - let's have an open discussion and exchange to see where our Churches stand on these matters.

That is what this Byzantine Forum is for. If we can't do that or if it bothers some people, then don't engage in such discussions until such time as we have studied the matter enough to come to a better personal understanding of the issues involved.

Traditional Latins have a problem disconnecting Latin theology from matters of the Catholic faith. Traditional Orthodox also have that problem.

Let's just all calm down - and apologise where apropriate - and resume the discussion in a Christian way.

Alex

Very good responses my Ukrainian brother,

I must apologize for my uninformed Latin brothers who need to study more than a day on Eastern ways before responding. As I have found, the Eastern Church has a truer and more traditional form of worship and thought.

Pokoj,
james

What post of mine even remotely implies ANY of that?

My point is is exactly the opposite. The Eastern Churches do NOT typically use the terminology we Latins do with regard to the doctrine of Purgatory. Nevertheless, they still believe the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church regarding Purgatory.

In much the same way, I can see that we Latins believe in theosis (that the justified partake of the divine nature), although your average Western Christian would grunt and say "huh?" if they were told they believed it!

My point is that it's simply wrong to say that Eastern Catholics don't believe in Purgatory. Terminological differences and theological speculations aside, they clearly do, and I cited a Melkite bishop to prove my point.

Dear PaxTecum,

Well, thank you for coming to your senses!

O.K. - we really ARE having a religous cultural conflict here.

Then let me state what I think you are saying - that way you can tell me where I'm wrong.

I already know where you are wrong . . .

I think you are saying that: a) the Eastern Churches don't accept the terminology of "Purgatory" but b) they believe in what the Latins call "Purgatory" nevertheless.

Is that a fair representation of what you are saying?

IF SO, then I agree with a) but disagree with b).

You are falling into the Latin error (and again, only if I'm right about what you are saying) of assuming that the differences between our Churches are nominal ones, but that we see things the same, dogmatically and otherwise.

The quote you gave from the Melkite is a quote from a man who has every right to believe in Latin theology as normative for the Eastern Church and consider that Eastern Catholics are Latins wearing Byzantine uniforms.

We have those types of people in the Ukie Catholic Church too. That doesn't mean that they speak for the Eastern Catholic Churches OR from within the context of Rome's desire to see us return to our legitimate spiritual and theological heritages.

We don't believe in a purgatorial fire - I don't know what RC's believe about it today - but our ancestors in Florence balked at it and Rome did not expect them to accept such a fire for formal union between the Churches to be had.

The Christian East doesn't believe that souls are assigned to heaven, hell or elsewhere before the Second Coming of Christ.

Souls come into the "forecourt" (stop me if you already know this!) of heaven or hell and will enter into either, when we, once again, become a composite being, with body and soul, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Prayers can help souls after death - they increase the souls' union with God, whether this involves a cleansing experience or else in the case of a holy soul who already needs no cleansing.

In truth we pray "for" the Mother of God and the Saints in the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom as well as "to" her.

If the RC Church allows for theosis in its theology, that is good.

But it either didn't understand it for the longest time or something else since it overtly rejected Palamism which was nothing more than a clear statement of Theosis or Deification by the Energies of God.

It is only very recently that Rome has recognized St Gregory Palamas as a saint and allowed his theology.

But I still come across those who are violently opposed to Theosis and say that the Catholic tradition denies this - a recent article by a Ukrainian Catholic theology professor in the Basilian publication "The Light."

The fact is that the CCC is not necessarily representative of Latin thought alone - it brings in elements of Eastern thought by way of synthesis.

John Meyendorff did a comparison between scholastic theology and Orthodox Theosis on this score - the two views are quite different.

But that is another topic.

And I'm sure you knew all about that too.

Alex

Alex:

I'm well aware that the differences between Eastern and Western theology is more than mere semantics. There' various perspectives that each side lends.

My point is that the Eastern Catholics Churches have to subscribe to the defined, dogmatic teaching concerning what we Latins called Purgatory. This teaching includes the following:

(1) that a purification after death exists,

(2) that it involves some kind of pain,

(3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God,

4) that the Church has the power to grant indulgences,

5) that indulgences are "salutary and beneficial" to Christians.

All of the above have been solemnly, dogmatically, and infallibly defined either by Popes of Rome or Ecumenical Councils.

Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

Concerning theosis:

We Latins have always believe that the justified man partakes of the divine nature. Our liturgy has always been refernece to this divinization.

Saint Gregory Palamas was controversial for a whole number of reasons, even within his own Orthodox Communion; it was not over theosis, butsome of the finer speculations regarding it, including the whole "essence" vs. "energies" debate.

OK, I'm with you so far. #1 and #3 are definitely defined Catholic dogma regarding some type of purgation in the afterlife.

I guess I can buy this too, but I don't think this necessarily fits into the "afterlife purgation" topic at hand. Yes, it ties in, but it's not strictly part of the dogma regarding "Purgatory", "Final Theosis", "Toll Houses", or whathaveyou.

I've never seen this as part of dogma, and would appreciate you providing an infallible source which unequivocally says this.

Logos Teen

I'll get bac to you this evening, when I log on to he computer again.

Doesn't all purification involve some kind of pain, albeit not necessarily "physical"?

Dear Friends:


Hopefully, this snippet will NOT contribute to the "misunderstanding" between the East and the West with regard to OUR Latin concept of "Purgatory."

Contrary to popular (Eastern?) belief, Catholic doctrine has NEVER specified what "purgatory" is like. For example: that there is fire, that it is like prison, or that one's stay is measured in weeks or years.

Catholic (Roman, at least) teaching simply AFFIRMS that there is a PURIFYING PROCESS AFTER DEATH!

When we die, we retain our identity. We are the person we formed ourselves to be. Few of us would claim to be perfect. We may basically be a loving person, but we probably still have some resistance to loving others and receiving love in return.

In the Latin West, "purgatory" expresses the belief that we can still grow in perfection after death.

It may involve pain; but there is a great difference between "growing pains" and "vindictive punishment."

Though sometimes depicted in Western art as a fearful place of fire and punishment, "purgatory" is seen by Catholics (Roman) as the kind provision of a loving God Who wills not the death of the sinner, BUT life, peace, and happiness!

AmdG