www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Judging a tree by its fruits.

Dan, I hope you don�t feel like I was singling you out. It was more of a general comment.

To your comments, I certainly pray for the unity of all, and I personally don't know anyone Orthodox people who don't take unity seriously. The fact is though what unity really means or how it is achieved is not so easy to pin down. What may seem like interest in unity to you, may not be to someone else.

For example, I think the RCC is simply wrong in some of its doctrines, otherwise I would probably now be Catholic. Catholic doctrine as those on this board will be happy to say doesn't change. So where does that leave us? I'm not against unity, but I also think the RCC needs to change its doctrine to achieve unity. Kind of a Catch-22. My focus is really on contributing to Orthodoxy in my own small ways, and letting what is outside of the church work itself out.

Regarding what happened in Athens, that was certainly unfortunate and ugly. There�s really excuse one can put on that. I don�t think you can paint all Orthodox people with that same brush though, or imply somehow that Orthodox Christians are �against unity� by simply openly expressing that in some important areas the Catholic Church is simply flatly wrong. That in itself is pro-unity, because you can�t have unity without honesty.

One more interesting thing about Athens. You may remember columnist Rob Dreher (a Catholic) wrote a rather scathing editorial in the WSJ about the Orthodox after JPII�s visit to Greece. It has recently come out that Mr. Dreher is considering conversion to Orthodoxy. He has chronicled it on his blog on beliefnet. What I have read there, and seen in other places, is a curios phenomenon. Catholic apologists who profess a love for Orthodoxy, and exasperation with Orthodox aversion to �unity�, will in certain circumstances show no compunction or hesitation in unleashing all sorts of vituperative on the Orthodox Church. The potential of a Catholic converting to Orthodoxy seems to be one such key trigger for this to happen. I stopped reading because of the anger I feel when I run across things like that. I�ve read things on this board that I found equally offensive.

I guess what I�m saying is we�re all against unity in our own way. Whether we consciously acknowledge that or not.

Andrew

Having thought about this and in all fairness, I do believe that Andrew does make a good point here.

Alice

Rillian,

most of those doctrinal differences existed prior to the split. We worked together then I can't see why we don't now. Accomodation has been made on "filioque". Purgatory is a virtual non-issue if we remember EO's pray for the dead. The nuances between Augustine and the East regarding original sin do not seem to me to be insurmountable. The one area that seems a problem is the supremacy of the Pope of Rome. There are issues there that seem almost intractable, but I suggest that if we consider that we could make a much better stand against Islam and Western Materialism by working together than by fighting against each other something could be worked out.

As you are doubtless aware there are places in the world in which at the local level Catholics and Orthodox do get on quite well even to the point of sharing the Eucharist.

I think I even understand the fear many Orthodox may have of simply being overwhelm by Roman culture. That is no small concern. Yet, most ECs are bringing back their Eastern Patrimony quite well. If you are not familiar with my parish check it out www.byzantinecatholic.com [byzantinecatholic.com]

In any event upon reflection I can see how my initial comment was rather insensitive. I thank you for you graciousness.

CDL

Dan, I�m hesitant to apply any more lashes to this particular horse, but let me say a few things.

I certainly agree we share more than we disagree on, and probably much more so the former than the latter. I also agree that many Orthodox polemicists go way overboard in some of their arguments (that one works both ways IMO though).

I�m with you on your last point as well. I agree that the world would be a better place, and it would be joyous if there was unity. Yet I find, as you mentioned, that the key differences are intractable. There may be a handful of issues, but there are there. I cannot accept what the RCC teaches about the Papacy, I think it is wrong. I also couldn�t for example accept that Lyons, Florence or Vatican I are valid councils. Those are just a few examples. I don�t see a way around them, in fact in regards to the Papacy things from what I have seen are actually getting worse. These things may have existed before the split, but not in the form of doctrine which they do now. That is a roadblock, and one which I don�t see a way around. To say that for instance the doctrines surrounding the Papacy won�t change, is to me to say �I�m for unity, but on my own terms�. Fair enough, but that is not really being for unity to me.

I am aware that based on ekonomia, in some places and under some circumstances, sacraments are administered to those outside of the church. This is not something I am particularly comfortable with, save for very grave circumstances, but we have to trust our hierarchs to make the correct decisions to do what is best.

In my church, as I have mentioned in another thread or two, we have several Catholics who have converted and some who are thinking about it. We have some Catholic spouses who have never converted, some of whom attend every single Sunday and have for years and some who attend periodically. They are all part of the parish community, and are not treated like pariahs. You probably would not even know they were not Orthodox. The difference is those who have formally converted receive communion, and those who haven�t do not.

This fear may exist, but I have never heard it expressed. My impression is there is a pretty well founded and understood identity within Orthodoxy. My feeling is that most Orthodox people believe the RCC is wrong in some key areas viz. my earlier comments.

In terms of the culture in Roman parishes, I will say in truth I feel little to no connection to it. I recently attended mass at the Archdiocesan cathedral near me and was frankly struck by how little I could identify with it.

Also, you have a beautiful parish.

Andrew

Culture is a funny thing....

In the U.S. the American culture has permeated the RC Church to the point that many Catholics and others feel alienated by its new face and reality here...

In places like Greece and Iraq, the RC Church is so warm (and light years different from the face of many modern American RC church realities and experiences) and so close to the local culture that an American Catholic might feel more comfortable there despite the language barrier!

Alice

Based on reports gleaned here. I am of the opinion the RCs of North America are on their own planet.

ICXC
NIKA

Dearest brothers and sisters in Christ -

Khristos voskrese.

I think that at times we need a dose of realism - even when the details of the picture are troubling and disturbing.

In the case of Russia, the picture is often confused and difficult, as so many of us already know.

We need only to look at worrying developments under the premiereship of Vladimir Putin and his close cooperation with the MP in connection with religious registration to start understanding the equation. Sadly the narrowness that is returning to the Russian socio-political outlook still characterises officil, instustionalised religion in many circumstances and officail Orthodox exploits its alliance with the state.

For the sceptics among you, there have been many attacks on dissident Orthodoxy within the former Soviet Union within the last decade, almost all of these sad occurences failing to make the news -at least outside Russia and in English language articles, just as the desecration of Orthodox Serbia has failed to reach the headlines.

The muscled arms of officialdom - state and patriarchate in symphonia - have continued to pound non-patriarchal Orthodox groups sine the fall of communism.

The Russian Orthodox Automomous Church has been systematically persecuted, individuals being subject to physical assault ( the Bishop of Khabarovsk was nearly 'terminated'), threats, false accusations of everything from tax avasion to corruption of minors, arson attacks (including attacks on elderly nuns and young children) and countless other instances of aggression. Churches have been robbed and vandalised and confiscated after they have been restored. In some attacks the footprints lead nowhere, but in others there is a clear line leading back to religious officaldom.

Catacomb bishops and monastics have vanished and and a priest belonging to the synod abroad mat the same fate as Fr Alexander Men.

Old Believers still face barriers, especially in regaining property. All too often the Moscow Patriarchate is awarded property that it never owned but greatly desires, to the loss of Old Rite Orthodox communities.

The facts are disturbing, but they cannot be swept under the carpet because we all want a rosy tinted dawn and an unspoiled religious vista in the new Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church at home and abroad.

Wonderful things have happened since the fall of communism. The monastic revival fills us with joy, the sight of crowded congregations is encouraging, spiritual education is making great progress and so many things fill us with hope, BUT we should at least have the honesty, maturity and spiritual wisdom to see that there are still dark occurences that should, and must trouble us, that must lead us to pray and ask why and how these things can happen. To forget or revise history and to dismiss the disturbing as rumour, gossip and inuendo is prelest - spiritual dillusion!

Let us be realistic and honest. This is not about gossip, judgement, jurisdictionalism and politics: it is about Truth.

Ultimately, only truth and openess can lead to reconcilaiation.

Spasi Khristos -

Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Father Mark,

Voistinu Voskrese! Alithos Anesti!

Thank you for your post.

Praying that wounds can be healed and that the Holy Spirit will revive hearts and souls in all ecclesiastical places where there has been scandal...

Kissing your right hand,
Alice

Efharisto para polli Alice.

My prayers are most certainly the same as yours.

It is so important that we never lose sight of our prophetic calling as Christians. Like the Old Testament prophets we still venerate so much in our Byzantine faith, we must call oneanother - let alone those outside the fold - to look at the world INCLUDING THE CHURCH and to recognise what's happening. Individually and collectively, we must recognise our past and our PRESENT and must all preach metania/repentance, the movement of the heart that can truly transform and become our spiritual ladder, slowly and painfully, but which ultimately leads us in our ascent to Christ.

Spasi Khristos -

Mark, unworthy monk.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark,

Thank you for these words of clarification. I guess there is trouble both West and East.

CDL

Dear Father Mark,

Your blessing!

...kai 'parakalo'!

Respectfully,
In the Risen Christ,
Alice

... and still, the plot goes on!!!!!!!!!!

Sunday, April 09, 2006
ROAC Church of St. Olga in Zheleznovodsk Given Over to Stavropol Diocese of the MP With Help From Cossacks and OMON

(Portal-credo.ru � Vertograd, Zheleznovodsk)

At about 9:00 AM on Monday, April 3rd, the Church of St. Olga, which belongs to the ROAC (Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church), was transferred by officers of the court to the authority of the Stavropol and Vladikavkaz Diocese of the MP. This information was given to a reporter for Portal-Credo.Ru during his conversation with one of the priests of the ROAC Orthodox community there, Archpriest George Novakovsky.

According to him, approximately five hundred parishioners of St. Olga�s Church, together with the community�s clergy, Frs. Anatoly, Roman, and George Novakovsky, assembled at about 7:00-8:00 AM in order to serve a supplicatory prayer service. The parishioners did not wait for the court officers since office workers of the court had earlier told community representatives that the officers might come at any time during the course of the day. Nevertheless, at 8:00 AM, Cossacks from the town of Mineral Waters arrived, which began to force their way into the church. However, the parishioners formed a human barricade and would not let them get through.

Fr. George remarked that the MP Diocese had purposely invited Cossacks from Mineral Waters since the Cossacks from Zheleznovodsk had refused to be involved in any action against the most well-known and largest Orthodox community of the ROAC in town. After the Cossacks failed to take immediate control of the church, police officers and members of the OMON (paramilitary police), together with officers of the court, arrived. They forced the parishioners and the Cossacks out of the way, and the three priests�the Novakovsky brothers�and their wives, who had remained in the church, ceased opposing the representatives of the court and turned over the church keys to the bailiff. The bailiff in turn gave them to Vasiliy Chechil, representative of the MP Diocese of Stavropol.

According to Fr. George, the rector of the Church of the Holy Protection of the Mother of God in Kavminvody, Fr. Ilya Ageev, has been named as the new rector of St. Olga�s Church. Archpriest George Novakovsky made a special point of saying that when it came to the question of removing the furnishings from the church, the community had been willing to leave the icon screen in the church, but the MP�s representative said that they had their own icon screen.

The police in Zheleznovodsk, who are well acquainted with the community led by the Novakovsky�s, offered the use of a vehicle to the parishioners for moving the church furnishings. After all of the icons and other furnishings were moved, the parishioners and clergy of St. Olga�s Church marched in procession to Fr. George�s home, where the parish will continue to meet after their eviction.

The ROAC community, which had been using the church built by the Novakovsky brothers for the last sixteen years, is planning on petitioning the Zheleznovodsk city administration for a parcel of land where they can build another church center, especially now that relations between the ROAC community and the Zheleznovodsk city administration have improved since Victor Lozovoy replaced the MP sympathizer Anatoly Zubtsov as mayor. According to Fr. George, Lozovoy had been promising from the start that the church would not be taken away from the parishioners.

We remind our readers that what took place on April 3rd, was nothing other than the fulfillment of the decisions handed down by the Stavropol and Krasnodar (arbitrazhny) courts concerning the transfer of the buildings of St. Olga�s Church to the jurisdiction of the Stavropol Diocese of the MP. In the fall of 2005, the judges had confirmed the claims of the Stavropol Diocese of the MP to property belonging to the ROAC, and had given the parishioners until the spring of 2006 to cede their property.

8:28 AM

Fr. Mark - our Russian Greek Catholic Church goes through very similar daily harrassment from the authorities, both civil and ecclesiastical. Keep the news coming, and as they say in the little church down the road - preach on, brother!!! Christos Voskrese!
DD

Father,

I weep with you for the good people of St. Olga's. I'm thankful for the news. What can be done?

CDL

This internet link might help some understand what this is all about.

http://www.roac.ru/index_e.shtml

ICXC
NIKA