www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Judging a tree by its fruits.

Look for independent verification of stories like this, I have seen some by searching the web.

Assume there are two sides to every story.

Look in to the history of the Russian Orthodox Autonomous in Russia and in this country (in particular the issues surrounding their leaving ROCOR).

Look in to what they think of other Orthodox or Catholics.

Those come to mind.

Andrew

I most cerainly do not think it is fair to judge the RAOC in Russia by the actions and pronouncements of the likes of the extremist Bishop Gregory of Colorado - whoever he may now belong to! He is no longer amongst the episcopate of the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church.

Furthermore, is the last post saying that we can somehow justify or excuse acts of religious terrorism because the party on the receiving end has a very strict ecclesiology and is not palatable to us? If members of the RAOC were liberal ecumenists, would the actions of thieves and persecutors be looked upon differently? Does their strictness make the actions of the MP somehow justified and acceptable?

The RAOC has its faults, but it is struggling to feed souls where they have been starved. Whilst the RAOC in Russia was 'cared for' by the synod in New York, some parishes didn't even have the most basic liturgical items. Bishop Michael of ROCOR did nothing for them! Absolutely nothing!!!
A parish in St Petersburg hung up sheets with paper icons attached because they could get no material help from the bishop in Toronto. At the same time, the Free Church, as it was then called in Russia, was not allowed to function without endless red-tape and dictats from the Synod House. Since its break with ROCOR it has grown and spiritually flowered.

The RAOC - like the Traditionalist Orthodox Churches in Greece, the Caucasus and the Balkans -has taken the way of the cross. It may be strict -too strict for the comfort of many - but its path is still the way of Golgotha.

We must pray, pray, pray.

Khristos voskrese -
Mark, monk and sinner.

I re-read my posts and I don�t see anywhere that I am attempting to justify the actions being discussed, regardless of whether they happened in the manner reported or not.

My point is essentially two-fold:

All churches in one way or another have dirty laundry, scandals, whatever you want to call them. It is just a fact of life. I suppose we could do nothing but discuss them. I don�t find it edifying to focus on anyone�s scandals, but that is just me. I certainly believe all of us when we do discuss such topics must do so with the readiness to answer for the actions of our own churches if we are going to point out the sins of others.

My second point is that when looking at issues like this one must consider both sides, and look particularly at the background and potential agendas of all those affected. It is just basic objectivity. That is why it for instance makes sense to look at the histories of both parties here, the ROAC and the MP. It helps form the context to understand these issues.

Now, to the question of the stance of the ROAC vis-�-vis other churches, that is probably a side issue. I will say personally that their belief that canonical Orthodoxy (let alone Catholicism) are without sacramental grace certainly makes me somewhat less willing to sympathize with their plight.

I will also say comments that I find to be tinged with judgmental overtones like

Or

I do find personally unpalatable and lacking in basic respect of others, not to mention carrying an air of spiritual superiority. What comes to my mind in general when I read things like this is the exact same one that the thread is titled with, a tree is judged by its fruits. I mean that in the sense of assessing a group like the ROAC and not in personal terms.

I do support the basic right of any individual to worship as they see fit without interference or molestation from the authorities, so I just want to be clear I in no way condone such a thing no matter who is perpetrating the action.

I don't enjoy discussing this type of thing, so I hope I have said enough to make my feelings clear.

Andrew

I think that it is wrong for one Orthodox jurisdiction (even if it feels that it is in the right) to sack another church (whom it rightly or wrongly feels to be in schism).

Christians should not make war against other Christians, but this is happening in Russia.

It is happening in Ireland where a Catholic teenage boy was beaten up by a protestant mob.

It is wrong and unchristian behavior.

I will also say comments that I find to be tinged with judgmental overtones like


quote:
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If members of the RAOC were liberal ecumenists
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Or


quote:
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The RAOC - like the Traditionalist Orthodox Churches in Greece, the Caucasus and the Balkans -has taken the way of the cross. It may be strict -too strict for the comfort of many - but its path is still the way of Golgotha.
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I do find personally unpalatable and lacking in basic respect of others, not to mention carrying an air of spiritual superiority. What comes to my mind in general when I read things like this is the exact same one that the thread is titled with, a tree is judged by its fruits. I mean that in the sense of assessing a group like the ROAC and not in personal terms.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us. Amen.

Dearest brother in Christ, Rilian - Christ is Risen!

I really am trying to see how the above comments, which you quote, show judgementalism or disrespect for others.

The first is a legitimate point, but the real issue is not who and what the RAOC are: the legitimate point is that institutional Christianity is using its power and influence to physiaclly persecute those who differ. The same body has attacked dissident Orthodoxy - New Rite and Old - and Byzantine Catholicism systematically and without remorse for decades. The point that is being made, is that this has not stopped, despite perestroika and glasnost. It continues with the connivance of state authorities.

Furthermore, the second point is hardly inflammatory. What is wrong with saying that dissident Orthodox have taken the way of Golgotha? It casts no aspersions or judgement on anyone else.

I whole-heartedly agree that these issues are not pleasant matters for discussion, but we do not live in ecclesiastical utopia. We live in a cruel world in which Christians - all of us - all too often fall short of the charge to be in the world, but not of the world.

We will gain nothing from sweeping unpleasant matters under the carpert and ignoring what's going on. They are legitimate points for discussion, however painful they may be. Furthermore, this forum has always appeared to be an open forum FOR SERIOUS LEGITIMATE DISCUSSION not a spiritaul Disneyland.

Rilian - I ask forgiveness if my posts offend. Since becoming a member of this forum several years ago I have never shirked from my own ecclesiology, but I have cultivated love and friendship with Byzantine Christian brothers and sisters of all ecclesiological persuasions. I have not sat in judgement and neither do I now. I am not a member of the Moscow Patriarchate, and neither am I a member of the RAOC, but I have strong links with Orthodox Christians on ALL SIDES in Russia. I am nobody's fool and I am not a propogandist with scores to settle and knives at the ready.

I am a monk troubled by religious persecution on all sides and I pray for all, regardless of affiliation.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner

..And I have sensed that in your posts.

CDL

I like the words of St. Thomas Acquinas:

"In my search for the love of truth, never let me forget the truth of love."


God looks at our hearts, and love is what counts.