www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Prayer Uncertainty and stressed

Greetings all,

I'd like to ask for your prayers. I'm wrestling between staying Byz. Catholic and becoming Orthodox. Some things have come to light which are making me lean towards Orthodoxy but I have alot more studying to do. Having obsessive compulsive disorder and an anxiety condition and having much difficulty shaking off a very middle ages, autocratic "God will condemn you if you break communion with the Pope" threatening mindset, I'm experiencing quite a bit of stress.

Thanks to all of you.

Sincerely,

Sant

Dear Sant,
I am sorry to hear of your dilemma. Where I live the Eastern Catholics very much resemble the Orthodox in theology and liturgy and there is no apparent conflict. Are you feeling up to elaborating on your concerns?

In the mean time, I certainly will pray for you Sant. And I hope that you find the contentment you seek.

In Christ,
Michael, that sinner

Dear Michael,

Thankyou very much for your support, i appreciate your concern.

I've encountered some stumbling blocks which are making me consider Orthodoxy, namely universal Papal jurisdiction, and the Vatican's favorable position on the Orthodox Church as True with grace-filled Sacraments.

Historically, I can't reconcile universal Papal jurisdiction and Papal Infallibility with the Conciliar understanding of the Church throughout the first millenium of Christianity. The factors influencing the Papacy around the end of that Millenium (i.e. the Franks, etc.) and the subsequent history of the Western Church, among other things, give me pause.

I also see the Vatican's prohibition of a Catholic becoming Orthodox seriously bureaucratic and somewhat of a double standard in light of their pronouncements on Orthodoxy having grace-filled Sacraments, True Church status and a "your salvation doesn't depend on being under Rome's authority" condition.

On the other hand, Peter received the keys. That's the only factor keeping me in the Catholic Church.

I'm also hoping that I can find a good parish, whether Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, which i think is essential now that i truly understand the Church to be a spiritual family, which i'm very deprived of. There's only one Eastern Catholic (Ukrainian) Church in my town, where i'm surrounded by grey hairs (i'm 26 yrs old).

Heartfelt thanks and regards from the land of Oz!

Sant

May our Lord, hold you in His hands and grant you peace. May He make clear your way and get rid of all of the confusion that is creating confusion for you.
Most Holy Theotokos pray for Sant.

As one who went through the same thing only in the other direction,my heart and prayers go out to you.Pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you.Greg

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Eternita, as someone who has gone through what you are describing with the Byz Cath/Orthodox outside of communion with Rome tension on multiple occasions, I will certainly keep you in my prayers. I have so many friends who have gone both ways over the years.

The conciliar nature of the Church was manifested and discussed at Vatican II. Take a look at Lumen Gentium and you will see the Church described as a communion of sister churches.

This pope himself has opened the door for the redefinition of papal authority in a conciliar framework as in the first thousand years.

With charity and love we are getting to our rightful place as Orthodox in communion with Rome. And remember, without the Eastern Catholics the Catholic Church is only Roman, not "Catholic" in the fullest sense of "universal".

Lord God, we gather round Sant in our midst.

Bless your servant with peace.

Lead Sant to the part of Your family that is meant to be home. Guide Sant as Your servant forms right conscience.

Then, may Sant stay or go gently trusting that the pilgrimage in either part consists in your leading us and forming us actively everyday where we are.

May Sant be certain that no matter where the pilgrimage leads, You are there, that You are lifting and carrying when necessary.

Grant Sant Joy because You have all in your power and strength every day and we are all in Your Hands. Then let your servant's mind and heart rest in You.

Dear Eternita,

I am going through the exact same situation. I too have a number of questions about the Catholic Church as it is. What really greaves me is that 90% of the Catholic Churches around me are so horribly infested with modernism and liberalism that it almost seems that at times I am already in virtual schism with the Catholic Church as it exists here at the beginning of the 21st century in the United States. What makes matters more complicated is that I attend a ROCOR church every week for Vigil, and I participate actively. Just last week, I attended a pilgrimage in honor of the 100th year anniversary of the glorification of St. Seraphim of Sarov. So why not just become Orthodox? Why not just break communion with a church I am hardly in communion with in the first place (receive communion during a barely valid Mass from a hand of a divorcee "Eucharistic minister"? Never!)? And don't most "Uniates" seem like some strange parody of Orthodoxy, with their shortened liturgies and their Latin-based customs?
The answer is not simple. I am still trying to formulate it myself. I guess I have the blessing of having my spiritual father, who is a hieromonk who in spite of being raised Greek Orthodox, entered the Catholic Church as a young man, while remaining very Orthodox in his perspective on virtually everything. The fact that I know him to be a very fatherly and humble figure makes me think that there is something to this whole Catholicism thing after all. And not only him, but all the living saints I have known have been very Latin and very Papist. I only can feel that, in remembering, I cannot but afirm that the Catholic Church is still very much a fountain of sanctity, so much so that I cannot, where I am now, break with it. For me, it would be, in some way, a form of betrayl to my ancestors (I am of Mexican descent) to leave communion with the Church of my fathers, even if I do not live exactly with their same traditions.
All I can recommend to you is to pray, but also to experience first hand the Catholicity of our church. I had the blessing of being a Latin seminarian (Society of St. Pius X), and am very much familiar with the Latin liturgy as it was celebrated before the Second Vatican Council. I know it to be a very beautiful Liturgy, and in its own way, very Orthodox. Participation in Latin devotions, such as the rosary and pilgrimages, would also be helpful. I say this because being in our room with our noses buried in books can often distort our concepts of what Christianity really is. Since Truth is a Person, our finding of Christ cannot be only through the writings of people, but in praying with them,in singing with them, and from being in front of God with them. When we do this, I think the (Latin)Catholics and the Orthodox will realize that they are not so different after all, and our differences, whether in Papal primacy and the Filioque, must be only a misunderstanding in the wording, even if it seems that for our tiny created mortal minds, there is opposition. To tell the truth, I have had too much experience as a (Latin)Catholic, in Corpus Christi processions and Legion of Mary rosaries, in pitch black confessional boxes and Solemn High Masses with priest, deacon and sundeacon, to give up on the dream of the Catholic Church, with both Greek and Latin lungs. So find a nice Mass in Latin with Gregorian chant, take your rosary, and start praying. You of course do not have to give up the Divine Liturgy or icons, but only ask yourself when you are doing this, "Is this really so bad? Do I really want to break communion with all of this?"
I am planning on going to my future monastery (Holy Resurrection Monastery, Newberry Springs, CA, USA) next week (I am hoping to become a monk within the next year) for the feast of the Dormition. I will remember you in my prayers. But don't worry about your eternal salvation depending about what hierarch is mentioned at your Divine Liturgy. If you cannot remain in communion with Rome because you see too many obstacles for you, I cannot condemn you for it. I myself was a virtual "schismatic" for two years (with the SSPX) and I always slept well at night in peace with God knowing that I was doing nothing wrong. If what you do looks holy, sounds holy, and feels holy.... what can I say, we are only human, and God does not expect us, as walking piles of dust and ashes, to solve all ecclesiological problems. I say, give Catholicism a chance, but also, "[God does not] desire the death of the sinner, but that he be converted and live."

Sincerly yours in Christ,
Arturo

Dear Eternita,

Both the Catholics and the Orthodox pray the Nicene Creed, which states a belief in "one Holy, catholic, and apostolic Church". Some of the Protestants do so as well. Jesus Christ established one Church and called all of us to love each other.

I cannot say where the edges of the Church are, although I've known some people who have been falling off the edges, and I've known some desperately trying to climb aboard. I myself have spent decades wandering around the edges, opccasionally dipping my toe in the Holy Water, so to speak.

I cannot say where the edge of the Church is, but I have a pretty good idea where the center is. It is closer to you than you might think. It is somwhat confused and lacking in confidence, but it tries to be a light for the people.

The center is where you will find Bishops struggling against political, social, economic and cultural forces pulling the people east and pulling them west. Where Andrew Sheptytsky was pastor to the Russian Catholics while also being a Ukrainian nationalist. Where Fr. Emilian Kovtch was pastor to all in the Nazi camps. Where Josyf Slipyj was pastor to all those in the Gulag. The center of The Church is in Lviv, at the crypt of Patriarch Josyf.

Where you are depends on where your heart and mind and your prayers are. I suggest that how close you are to Josyf Slipyj, is how close you are to the ideal of One Church.

------------------------------------
Diak wrote:

"With charity and love we are getting to our rightful place as Orthodox in communion with Rome. And remember, without the Eastern Catholics the Catholic Church is only Roman, not "Catholic" in the fullest sense of "universal"."
------------------------------------

Those gray hairs in your local Ukrainian Church may be closer than you think to where Jesus is calling you. I shall pray that you are guided to where Jesus needs you to be.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Thankyou one and all for your prayers.

Arturo, i'm very grateful you took the time to express your thoughts. I can't thank you enough and I wish you all the very best in discerning your vocation as a monk.

This is truly a trial which is proving to be an enormous blessing in disguise. Why? Because it's brought me back to earth. The intense pride I developed as a result of the chronic exposure for years to Roman Catholic apologists and polemics, whose claims I passively accepted as gospel truth (if only they knew the damage they're doing for the purpose of unity) is being expunged. I've only recently been reflecting on the damage it caused in my relationship with my friends and family, particularly my Evangelical Protestant close friend/business partner after many an overheated and acrimonious theological debate over the past few years where I would boast of the correctness of my views. I was moved to SMS him to apologise for all I had done; he must've thought he was seeing things after reading the message!


I empathise with you in regards to your grievances. When i was going to Roman Catholic Mass the liturgical aberrations were numerous and blatantly outrageous. The 12 year old boy in shorts distributing Holy Eucharist would have to take the cake. I could multiply these instances ad infinitum.

Yes the Latin Liturgy is magnanimous. I firmly believe that the restoration of the Latin Mass, not necessarily in the Tridentine form, will do much good for Roman Catholicism in disinfecting itself from the disease of modernism.

As for my paradigm shift, I'm still unable to reconcile the claims of the Catholic Church with the evidence of history when it comes to the issue of Papal Jurisdiction and Supremacy. Vatican I is a 500 pound stumbling block. I'm exuberant about His Holiness John Paul II The Great's intentions to re-examine the Papacy, but frankly, to me this implies that the Orthodox have had it right the whole time.

I just can't help believing that once the "schism" is overcome the Western Church will end up backpedalling by saying "oh Vatican I and all the councils since the schism weren't ecumenical because the previously separated Orthodox Bishops weren't present" or "it only applied to the Western Church."

God brought me to Eastern Christianity in order to make me see Him, and I see him much clearer now, in everthing and everyone. Of course, like yourself, I see the need to have both lungs. Roman Catholicism and my spiritual healer, a RC priest, brought me to where I am now, and for that I'll be eternally grateful.

Let's pray that the bureaucrats who believe the Latin way is the ultimate standard, and those who are still bruised by historical injustices will experience a change of heart, clear up all the misunderstandings and unite our family.

Take care and be assured of my prayers for you.

Santino

(Sant)

Dear Eternita,

Thank you for your prayers. To address your concerns about Vatican I, I have to say that I have the same doubts. It's something I really struggle with, and it is something that this age of blind ecumenism tends to overlook. Until the 1960's, both Churches were adamant that belonging to one church and not the other excluded you from the Kingdom of Heaven. Particularily in the Latin Church, there was the iron law: Extra Ecclesia nulla salus, and of course, Innocent III's proclamation that one's eternal salvation depends on obedience to the Roman Pontiff. So what about St. Seraphim of Sarov? St. Gregory Palamas? St. Nectarios of Aegina? St. Silouan of Mt. Athos? What about the immense treasures of Orthodoxy (not "Uniatism" under the Babylonian captivity of Western theology)? The Philokalia? Icons? Byzantine chant? Are all these products of the devil, a siren song that tries to seduce people away from communion with Rome? If the Holy Spirit can only work within the Latin Church, either all the glories of Orthodoxy are deceptions and false, because they were not born under the sweet yoke of the Roman Pontiff, or the Catholic Church is not what we think it is....
The paradigm shift between the Church of Pius XII and Vatican II was too swift and violent, almost as if everybody wanted to sweep everything under the rug in some giant ecumenical lovefest. I don't have any answers. But knowing what I know, and what any Latin integrist seminarian who did not sleep in all his classes could tell you, if you wanted to make a stink about any difference between the Latin Church and the Orthodox, it would not be hard to stir up controversy (the Filioque, the Beatific Vision, purgatory, created grace, semi-Pelagianism, etc, etc., etc.) Too many things are still unresolved, and all the mush-headed (pardon the harsh phrase), flower picking theologians of the post-Vatican II era don't seem to really want to tackle them, because they are too busy extolling the joys of unity, or they don't believe in traditional Latin theology in the first place (that is assuming that some of them even have the Faith to begin with). So you and I continue to suffer between two churches, trying to reconcile standing at Vigil in an Orthodox Church and remembering as well that it is a mortal sin to pray with schismatics. (Of course, they changed this law, but can such laws really be changed?)
I have no answers. I guess, if I go to the monastery this week, I will ask my father, and he will tell me. But I have lost the Catholic Faith twice in my life and fell into a deep pit, and where I am now, I do not intend to do so again.
Thank you again for your prayers.
Arturo

May the Lord come to your aid.

Remember that all jurisdictional and community structures are human - and subject to all the vagaries of human frailty.

Please: go to a quiet place (even a hotel room), recite your comfort prayers, and then sit quietly and ask the Holy Spirit to give you guidance. One parish or jurisdiction or another is just that: a parish or jurisdiction. But your soul must be in the hands of the Holy Spirit. And no one else's.

May the Lord come to your aid. May the guidance of the Holy Spirit come to you in a clear way. And may the Lord just shower you with an abundance of blessings.

Please pray for me.

Blessings!!

May the 'peace which passes all understanding' ever enlighten you on your respective journeys, Eternita and Arturo, and prayers and guidance be with all pray-ers here on the board!
May we KNOW that we are IN His peace always --
Communion of Saints

Dear Arturo,

Como esta amigo?

I hope i'm not swaying you or anyone else for that matter, in one direction or the other. I think it's good that we're voicing our dilemmas rather than suffering in silence (believe me i'm no stranger to that).

I used to take pride in affirming myself as a student of theology until recently and I would've used all those cute little apologias spoon-fed to me by Catholic Answers et al to rebut your objections. Besides all those definitions have been re-interpreted by the Vatican anyway. But to think...50 years ago I would've gone to hell for saying a prayer with my devout, Christ-loving Protestant family-friends.

I'll be brutally honest with you. I wholeheartedly believe that despite these serious obfuscations the Holy Spirit works sacramentally through both the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church, that some things are lacking in both, but for the Eastern Christian the glass of the Orthodox Church is fuller than that of the Catholic Church. If you are Latin in your spirituality and understanding of the faith, perhaps Roman Catholicism is where you may belong. Just my thoughts.

Anyway this is the prayer forum so i don't think i should be turning into the "What's your beef" forum. If you'd like to email me please do so, i'd welcome your correspondence: eternita@jc.com.au


To everyone else I thank you all for your insight and prayers. You guys rock.

Regards,

Sant

I will keep all of you in my prayers.

The Universal Church of Jesus Christ needs many holy people today -- holy people in all jurisdictions.

I sometimes ask myself: "What would Our Lord do is this situation/that situation?"

And like yesterday's Gospel -- let's keep our eyes fixed on Jesus and then we won't see the big waves and the cold water on our toes and ankles and legs. Let us stay focused on Jesus.