www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Jews Don't Need Jesus?

Dear Stuart,

You go, Big Guy, you go!

Alex

Dear Stuart,

First of all, no one is won to Christ by a wordless sermon. You yourself are a Christian because someone proclaimed it with his/her mouth; you can see all you want but as St. Paul says, "Faith comes by hearing. There are a lot of people that do "nice things" and may be morally compliant that are involved with anything and everything but Christianity.

Now don't respond back with what Paul wrote Timothy re: be ready to answer when they ask you why you live as you do. I will say this once: I AM NOT AGAINST LIVING A GOOD LIFE AS A GOOD WITNESS TO THE FAITH, AND I AM AGAINST FORCING THE FAITH ON PEOPLE THREATENING THEM WITH THE FIRES OF HELL.

As you know, the John 3:16 text uses the term self-condemnation. People will actually condemn themselves by NOT responding to God's Grace found only in Christ; I do agree with you, it should never be forced, but it must be shared.

Pope JPII writes in his encyclical "Redemptoris Missio" we are to proclaim Christ to all peoples of all nations. Modern times may have brought us new theological ideas (Jesus Seminar, for example), humanistic philosophies, and inter-religious dialogue, but this does not excuse the permanent validity of the church's missionary mandate to (open our mouths) proclaim Jesus.

And we are to proclaim Christ to people taking into consideration their dignity. St. Paul gives the perfect example of how to evangelize. He didn't hit them over the head with a bible and yell, "Believe or fry!"; he approached them in love, and told them it was good that they were looking for God, although they had Him dubbed "the unknown god". He proceeded to say, "But let me tell you about the one God of the universe..the one you're looking for.." (liberal paraphrase, I know). What's the point? He was vocal. It came through his mouth. He didn't keep it to himself. St. Paul employed what the Holy Father wrote in the encyclical," Salvation is available to all, it must be proclaimed to all".

Your response re: the western way to be....argumentative and...futile is very accurate. No one is won to Christ by a convincing argument. Scripture makes it clear that no one is drawn to Christ unless initiated by the Holy Spirit. But we are to proclaim it regardless.

Someone responded to another one of my postings boasting about how many people of an ethnicity he converted. The reality is HE CAN NEVER CONVERT ANYONE. We are not (and should not)to keep running tabs of who we evangelize and the results--that is evangelical protestantism at its finest.
We are to boast "in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" in which we are crucified to the world and the world to us.

As Mother Teresa says, "Obey God and let Him worry about the results".

To further touch on the Western approach, what impact are the Eastern churches making in America? If my father wasn't a Byzantine Catholic and I wasn't raised in that environment, I would not even know these churches existed. How are you getting the Gospel out? I'm not asking this to be argumentative. I know you believe proclaiming Christ with your life is THE most effective way, but there are so many, Stuart, who are addicted to drugs, alcohol, homosexual relationships, that need to hear, not see, a message. So please e-mail me and let me know how you personally deal with these individuals without proclaiming Christ with your mouth? How does one become "free" of these sinful illnesses spending time with a silent witness? This is the reason why our churches have been ineffective in reaching the lost, th hurting, and the lonely. We are being too silent.

I struggled with drugs and alcohol for nearly 20 years while being constantly surrounded by RC's and BC's who never, never, never, told me once that I could be delivered from this. These are people who never missed Sunday Mass or Divine Liturgy. If I was raised in an evangelical household there would've been 19 less years of hell for me...there would've been no hesitation in telling me that I could be healed and delivered. I tell you this NOT to convert you to evangelicalism, I share this because we are not addressing issues that need to be addressed. We are being too silent.

Many former Catholics and non-Christians have been won to the born-again side because of this very reason: our silence. It took me a long time to get over how I had to hear of that "Amazing Grace",that you quoted from, from people that are considered schismatics, while the "true churches founded by Christ" told me nothing. And that mentality and methodology is still employed today: by us individually in the pew, and by the pulpit.

I've gone on far too long with this. As you can see, this is an emotional topic for me...especially since it can be so easily avoided. Yes we must give witness with our lives, but our life is to be backingup what WE HAVE ALREADY PROCLAIMED!!!

Peace,
Walt metrick

I respectfully disagree.

Proclaiming the Gospel to the world is extremely important. When we live the Gospel the opportunities to speak about it are very abundant indeed.

Walt,

Yep! How can someone know about Christ if no one told them? "Go therefore and Baptise ALL nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" - GOD. Nothing else needs to be said. If you do not do this then you are not obeying God. Well, that is true if I remember my Truth Tables from Logic class

God Bless!

Dear Ray and Walt,

Just a point here, Big Guys - you mean to say that North America's Jews, Muslims etc. have never heard of Jesus?

And what if they refuse to accept Him or our faith?

What do we do then?

Take off our shoes and shake the dust from them in their faces?

Again, you've not told us how many converts you've won by the methods you imply.

I hope I'm not being hard, but I think that the kind of approach you are advocating just doesn't work.

It backfires, as a matter of fact.

And just so you know. I'm always on the lookout for converts for Christ.

I don't agree with your approach. But that doesn't mean I'm not "out there for Jesus."

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walt metrick:
[QB]Dear Stuart,

>>>First of all, no one is won to Christ by a wordless sermon.<<<

Francis of Assisi thought otherwise. And there were many converted not by the sermons of the Fathers as by the nonverbal witness of the ascetics and monastics.

>>>You yourself are a Christian because someone proclaimed it with his/her mouth; you can see all you want but as St. Paul says, "Faith comes by hearing.<<<

Actually, what I heard was not a sermon, nor even a homily, and certainly not an apologetic lecture. What I heard was the voice of people who lived in Christ, and who therefore bore witness to Him by their every act. Words were the least of it. In any case, we're the Eastern Church--we don't read, we look at the pretty pictures.

>>>There are a lot of people that do "nice things" and may be morally compliant that are involved with anything and everything but Christianity.<<<

When Christians do "nice things", they do so because the image and likeness of God is in the least of us. Who is the better witness to Christ, the in-your-face evangelist, or Mother Teresa? When the words have faded, the image remains.

>>>Now don't respond back with what Paul wrote Timothy re: be ready to answer when they ask you why you live as you do. I will say this once: I AM NOT AGAINST LIVING A GOOD LIFE AS A GOOD WITNESS TO THE FAITH, AND I AM AGAINST FORCING THE FAITH ON PEOPLE THREATENING THEM WITH THE FIRES OF HELL.<<<

"Preach the Gospel always. Speak if you must." Francis of Assisi. Francis won more to Christ by his example than Dominic with all his preaching, or the Jesuits with all their casuistry.

>>>As you know, the John 3:16 text uses the term self-condemnation. People will actually condemn themselves by NOT responding to God's Grace found only in Christ; I do agree with you, it should never be forced, but it must be shared.<<<

We disagree on how best to share it.

>>>Pope JPII writes in his encyclical "Redemptoris Missio" we are to proclaim Christ to all peoples of all nations.<<<

Proclamation can take many forms. I prefer those who proclaim the Gospel with their lives, rather than their mouths.

>>>Modern times may have brought us new theological ideas (Jesus Seminar, for example), humanistic philosophies, and inter-religious dialogue, but this does not excuse the permanent validity of the church's missionary mandate to (open our mouths) proclaim Jesus.<<<

Never said it did. But perhaps you need to read about how some of the Fathers conducted their missionary activities.<<<

Stuart,

You didn't answer the questions. How do you personally get the message to a struggling homosexual that his/her lifestyle is an abomination in God's eyes? How do you personally get the message across that he/she can be free from his type of behavior?

And what about your co-workers or non-Christian friends? What about couples co-habitating before marriage? Is it true Christian love to say nothing?

I know personally of a situation re: a man who did nothing but play the field, treating women as though they were strictly recreational items. And
guess what? A Christian decided not to be the silent witness and tell this person that this behavior was sinful behavior in God's eyes. He said he never knew this was wrong behavior!! All the pain and hurt he caused women with his love 'em and leave 'em mentality, because of all those silent witnesses.

That silent witness type of approach is why I continued in my chemical dependecy "state" as long as I did.

If someone in your family is involved in a behavior that could destroy them physically, morally, financially, and spiritually, are you telling me you will take the attitude of: "Gee, I wish I could proclaim something, but I must remain silent. I will convert them over by my behavior." I seriously doubt it.


Scripture teaches how people are "fed" by God through other people. One plants the seeds, the other reaps. Neither one is silent.

I don't mean for this to sound in-your-face, though I realize it does. But your way leaves too many people not knowing of the re-birth, redemption, healing, and deliverance available to those whose lives are filled with despair, depression, and loneliness.

Give me Chrysostom (MR. GOLDENMOUTH) over Assisi any day!!!!

Stuart, despite our disagreements, I pray His Peace and Divine Mercy to reign in your soul.

I leave you with a line from the movie THE APOSTLE: "Praise God, you do it your way and I'll do it mine, but we'll get the job done!!

Peace,
Walt

One more thing,

Perhaps our differences in employing the sharing of our faith comes from a different type of environment, and the people we minister to. I am surrounded by those that are mentally and physically disabled. They have much in common: dysfunctional family histories, substance abuse, victims of some kind of sexual, emotional, or physical abuse, some have survived domestic violence, some have just plain never been loved.
I share many of these hurts and experiences with them.

This is what my life consists of. There is no more of a social life for me, this ministry and calling does not leave much time for frolic.

As far as the number of conversions, I could never tell you, or begin to guess, since I am prohibited by funding agencies to have that much contact with them. I can tell you the amount I've evangelized easily into the hundreds. They come and go since we are a transitional dormitory shelter. But I can tell you this: since I made it a point to evangelize and share my testimony whenever I could, the clients began insisting to me and other members of staff for bibles, daily devotional guides, spiritual books, and this has blossomed into a bible study in which I am supplying the study materials. What's the point? None of this happens if I remain silent. And Jesus expects us to be faithful. My job is to proclaim Him; His job is to do the converting.

My, and every one of our objective's, should be a desire for every human being to have a vibrant, personal relationship with Jesus Christ [this is actually in the Catholic Catechism re: a personal relationship; we give the evangelicals too much credit for these phrases; remember, everything was Catholic before they got hold of it]. I will always desire to be a vessel of proclamation. I am not going to force Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or any other denomination or non-denomination on them. I have a motto: Be Christ, Show Christ, Proclaim Christ. The three must go hand-in-glove; especially with the clientele I am with.

Perhaps you have different people and backgrounds than I do which necessitates the different approaches.

If anything I wrote was too offensive to you, I apologize for they way I stated it; but I cannot apologize for the point(s) I was trying to convey.

It is obvious there are different gifts and personalities in the body of Christ; so you guys can be the "silent witnesses" that plant the seed, and I'll be the mouthy proclaimer that will bring them home.

Peace,
Walt Metrick

Orthodox Catholic,

"Preach the Gospel always. Speak if you must." Francis of Assisi

If that fails you pray for the individual. It is between that person and God.

How many converts have I won to Christ? I don't convert God does. Has God used me to help in a conversion? Maybe, that is between God and that person.

God Bless!

Dear All,

The notion that God has never recinded his Covenantal relationship with the Jewish People was something that was taught in the seminary a number of years ago during Vatican II and after. We studied the documents of Vatican II as texts in many classes. Through that study we learned about the continuity of God's Covenant with His first People, Israel.

I located the statement in Nostra Aetate, the document on non-Christian religions, the part of the documents that dealt specifically with this. The reference is Nostra Aetate 4. It is referred to in the Catechism of the Catholic Church when it deals with the relationship between the People of God and those who are not Christian.

The Catechism says:

839. "'Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.'[LG 16.]
The relationship of the Church with the JEWISH People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New COVENANT, discovers her link with the JEWISH People,[Cf. NA 4.] 'the first to hear the Word of God.'[Roman Missal, Good Friday 13: General Intercessions, VI.] The JEWISH faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old COVENANT. To the Jews 'belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ',[Rom 9:4-5 .] 'for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.'[Rom 11:29 .]"

(This information can be accessed by a search of the Catechism on-line.)

The seemingly dichotomous need of the People of God to respond to the Call of God to evangelize and the need of the Jewish People to respond faithfully to the Call of God to them offers a challenge to our understanding. Perhaps the subcommittee's statement is an honest attempt for faith to reach for a clearer understanding.

Given that both are commands of God to His People, our humility in the presence of the Mystery Who challenges our understanding must be a given. We must evangelize, yet we must respect the People who respond to the Covenant that God has with them still.

It is still true that Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God lived and died as a Son of the Covenant and as a Jew. Certainly, it seems to me, for His sake we owe his brothers and sisters in the Old Covenant respect even as we witness Him to them in whatever way His Church wants us to.

Steve


Here's Nostra Aetate 4:

"As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.
Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows."

Material can be accessed through a search of the documents of Vatican II which can be found on-line.

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walt metrick:
[QB]Stuart,

>>>You didn't answer the questions. How do you personally get the message to a struggling homosexual that his/her lifestyle is an abomination in God's eyes? How do you personally get the message across that he/she can be free from his type of behavior?<<<

How did we get from converting the Jews to healing homosexuals? Are you implying that ONLY by professing Christ can a homosexual shake off his sinful and destructive lifestyle? What about Jewish homosexuals? Judaism is the source of the moral law by which we know homosexuality to be sinful. So, a Jewish homosexual cannot find God through adherence to his own tradition, his people's own covenant with God? You're flailing around here.

>>>And what about your co-workers or non-Christian friends? What about couples co-habitating before marriage? Is it true Christian love to say nothing?<<<

How did we get from converting the Jews to premarital sex? What's with the sex, anyway? And suppose the couple shacking up are Jewish? Does not Jewish law as well as the Christian frown upon such things? Wouldn't the CHRISTIAN thing to do in that case be to help the couple rediscover their OWN tradition?

>>>I know personally of a situation re: a man who did nothing but play the field, treating women as though they were strictly recreational items. And
guess what? A Christian decided not to be the silent witness and tell this person that this behavior was sinful behavior in God's eyes. He said he never knew this was wrong behavior!! All the pain and hurt he caused women with his love 'em and leave 'em mentality, because of all those silent witnesses.<<<

This couldn't be done OUTSIDE of an overt evangelical solicitation? What if it was a Jewish philanderer?

>>>That silent witness type of approach is why I continued in my chemical dependecy "state" as long as I did.<<<

Ah, so now it comes out. Nothing more zealous than the zeal of the converted. Did it ever occur to you that what worked in your case might not work--might even be counterproductive--in the case of others.

And once again, I put it to you, what has alcoholism or drug addiction (chemical dependency is such a namby-pamby euphemism)got to do with converting the Jews? Are you saying that only through Christ can one shake off addiction? What about Jewish addicts who kick the habit?

>>>If someone in your family is involved in a behavior that could destroy them physically, morally, financially, and spiritually, are you telling me you will take the attitude of: "Gee, I wish I could proclaim something, but I must remain silent.<<<

So, being Jewish is a destructive form of behavior? Pull yourself together, man, and address the issue.

>>>I will convert them over by my behavior." I seriously doubt it.<<<

If you are there for them, you ARE converting them over by their behavior.


>>>Scripture teaches how people are "fed" by God through other people. One plants the seeds, the other reaps. Neither one is silent.<<<

There are many ways in which people can sow and reap. Some do so through words, others by deeds, and some just by BEING.

>>>I don't mean for this to sound in-your-face, though I realize it does.<<<

Perhaps because it is?

>>>But your way leaves too many people not knowing of the re-birth, redemption, healing, and deliverance available to those whose lives are filled with despair, depression, and loneliness.<<<

So, being Jewish is to be filled with despair, depression and loneliness? Just how many Jews do you really know?

>>>Give me Chrysostom (MR. GOLDENMOUTH) over Assisi any day!!!!<<<

You've obviously not read Chrysostom very closely. He is constantly concerned about moral state of his flock, but in his homilies he never condemns them, but himself. "What have I done, where have I failed", he constantly asks them, "that you indulge in these behaviors?" It is HIS failing, not theirs, that they do not know God's will. He then proceeds to point out how their actions disappoint God, and how he will try harder in the future to be a good shepherd. Oh, and if it wasn't for the congruency between Chrysostom's message and the way he lived, I really doubt all the eloquence and rhetorical cleverness in the world would have made him an effective preacher.

Dear Walt,

I think you really need to reassess what you've said here and perhaps what you need is to speak with a priest on this issue.

I frankly find your approach rather offensive and disrespectful toward the Jewish and other faith traditions.

Patriarch Josef Slipyj was assisted, during the time of his persecutions, by Jews. He met one of them in Israel who had become the owner of a hotel.

They embraced and cried over one another.

That is a Christ-like way of behaving toward one another.

Again, your approach appears to be the bullish, evangelical "plow right ahead" one that is not Catholic, not Orthodox, and not in keeping with the best of the Christian tradition.

Perhaps you don't know any better. That is why I only suggest you might wish to speak with a priest concerning your views on this matter and I won't mention it again.

Alex

Anyone that thinks that proclaiming Christ Crucified and Risen to hurting people or those that never heard the Gospel is being intolerant and bullish are the ones that need to get a grip.

I pray neither of you are anywhere near a pulpit.

I won't mention this or this topic again, either.

"He who does not believe in the name of the only Son of God is condemned."-Jesus

I don't understand all the debate and confusion regarding this.

Columcille

Seems the great evil that is Ecumenism has reached far and wide into the Byzantine Catholic Church. Let's pray it does not grip the whole church.

God Bless!