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For those of you who are not faint hearted access the following website and scroll down. You will see a picture of just the hand of a dead Russian child clutching her Orthodox Cross! This picture brought tears to my eyes and will etched in my mind forever.

Dear Lord grant peace and rest to these poor innocent children!


http://www.drudgereport.com/

And scroll down.

OrthoMan

I am weeping for the injured and dead of this horrible tragedy.

Rest in peace!

Paul

This shows just how far these fanatics will go to further their cause. Nothing, not even innocent childred will be spared their feindish delight of killings. It looks like a turn towards "soft" targets are now the norm. God help us all.

JoeS

So where does this leave us? According to one of our posters, Islam is younger than Christianity and if we give them enough time, they will become peaceful. The other side of that argument is there may be few Christians left that they haven't wiped out in another 500 years. So what do we do? Pray, and hope for the best? Go after them before they come to us, which I have heard others say recently? Is there a peaceful solution, or are these folks a cancer that has to be destroyed? I am looking for a practical solution, not an academic exercise or word constructs by those who are safely removed from any actual involvement with this. What do we do? You tell me.

I thought I read somewhere that leaders of this particular fanatical group were women. Has anyone else heard that?
It seems like Muslims are attacking all over the world. Are they trying to bring the world to war? If these are all so-called 'fanatic militants' why isn't there more denouncement in public from the so-called 'peaceful' Islamic clerics and people? Perhaps they don't necessarily disagree with these acts?
I think in this war on terror we need to shut down these militant training camps wherever we find them, and especially the camps located on US soil.
Scary times!
Marya

looks like they have taken the picture off the website. I still have it in my files. Anyone who wants to see it send me a private message with an email address.

OrthoMan

I am afraid that this thread may deteriorate quickly at the hands of some posters, as other similar threads have...

So, with fear and trepidation, I will add my two cents!

In a conversation with a friend about this, we agreed that although the Christian world does not see any of this as a 'holy war of religions', I am afraid, that no matter how much we wish away, rationalize or intellectualize this situation, or, no matter how much we empathize and/or sympathize with the majority peaceful people of Islam, we have to realize that *officially* Islam is in a 'holy war' with Christian peoples, and would like to see us all become Moslem.

These are my thoughts, for what they are worth...
(and I am ducking from those posters! )

Praying that our Lord God will have mercy on us all,
and that He will forgive us all, Christians *and* Muslims for sins of hatred, religious triumphalism and ego...
remembering always that we must try to practice what we preach, but more importantly, what our Saviour preached....

Alice

Dear brother in Christ, Bob,

I completely empathize with your post. Please read my prayers on the Prayer section to know the depth of my feelings for all involved in this tragedy. Kyrie Eleison!

Hope that you are feeling better and are in less pain these days.

Blessings,
Alice

I have to agree with you, Alice. It does seem that way. Stand your ground, dear lady, and don't be intimidated by those who would criticize you. It's easy to sit in the safety and security of an ivory tower and theorize about a world you have neither experienced, nor understand. I am more interested in what the Muslims do, than what they say, but then actions do speak louder than words, don't they? That being said, I am sure there are Muslims who are horrified by all of the recent happenings as well. But as Marya said:

I think some of the "peaceful" clerics and governments have actually been funding these extremists for years.

I don't understand the idea that Islam is a "peaceful" religion. The experts that I have read--those who have a working knowledge of both that religion and the Arabic language--insist that it is a religion, a government, and a military strategy all rolled into one. In addition, they claim that the Arabic Quran insists on either the conversion or death of both Christians and Jews. They say that this part is omitted from the English version. They speculate that the reason is that it would tend to get the Western world mobilized while they want us to dither over our liberal hopes for negotiation.

So, I guess I'd have to go with "cancer" that we have to deal with. Just as we fought the Soviet Union until it collapsed, we now have a ruthless enemy to face and defeat. Only one side will prevail.

I do believe that these "peaceful" people are funding the fanatics. They make no distinction between charity contributions for the poor and for the religion. And as long as these fanatics clothe themselves in the Quran, they will be viewed as legitimate places to send one's charity.

My two pennies worth.

BOB

Describing people as "cancer" is the sort of thought that leads to genocide. We live in an age when women and children are considered legitimate targets in warfare; many who are [rightly] outraged by the murderous acts in Russia are quick to defend the use of nuclear weapons during World War II by the United States. And of course let us remember that we live in a country where innocent children are murdered in their mothers' wombs by the thousands DAILY.
If you would take the time to search Islamic sites on the web you will find a lot of things that you are unlikely to read about in the media, like photos of candlelight vigils in Iran and Palestine after September 11, Islamic clerics renouncing the terrorists interpretation of Jihad, and documentation of Russian atrocities in Chechnya.
In the name of God, do not react to this horrible act of murder with stereotyping and hate.

[If you would take the time to search Islamic sites on the web you will find a lot of things that you are unlikely to read about in the media, like photos of candlelight vigils in Iran and Palestine after September 11, Islamic clerics renouncing the terrorists interpretation of Jihad, and documentation of Russian atrocities in Chechnya.]

If these sites do in fact exist, and are so readily available perhaps you can post some of them here? I, for one, would like to read them!

OrthoMan

I am not a theologian and I am not by any means an historian, but I've been trying to look at this issue from my own broad and basic perspective (often flawed).

The Christian Book- the Bible- though filled with many positive things seems to have an underlying message that Christians received a Divine message over and above the Jews, making the Jews wrong in their incomplete belief. After the Reformation, Protestants used the same Bible to discount Catholics. Catholics are not saved, ritualistic, don't really follow Christ the right way, and therefore Protestants are better. Splinter Protestant groups, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses carried it further- all claiming "God is on MY side. I have the REAL truth."

The Catholic/Orthodox schism is basically the same idea. Each one claims to hold more truth than the other. We fight over crazy things on this mutual board and others. From what we read, our clerical leaders are often stubborn and won't give in to the other for the sake of unity. example: a patriarch won't allow a pope to even visit a country for fear of 'stealing sheep'.

The Quran speaks of 'they'(Christians/Jews) as well, its leaders claiming to have the 'real'or revised Divine Truth. The schism within Islam between Mohammed's followers and Ali's followers- Shiites and Sunnis is the same.

My point is that each group has made God into what THEY want. God is on THEIR side, therefore everyone else is wrong/damned to Hell/must be eliminated. Each group has fighters/martyrs that will die for their cause.

Is this a human need? I'm not a psychologist or sociologist either. It seems like rather than define one God we have made God into our own images. God is in MY hand, rather than I am in God's hand.

Does God really require one group to face Mecca or another to keep the Sabbath on Saturday, while another keeps Sunday? Does God prefer the Julian over the Gregorian calendars? Do we have to kill each other to prove we are right, though we really don't even KNOW Gods 'preference'?

It seems to me our major religious leaders may need to get together to make a basic statement in the name of world peace. ???? (I won't hold my breath too long!)

Just my thoughts,
Marya

Dear Iconofile,

All me to do the stereotyping if you want to mislabel or misunderstand matters. Muslims do not confess our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. You cannot separate the people from that which a belief system teaches. That is because they believe in accordance with what the Islam collectively teaches in it's entire context which differs from what Christianity teaches. The devil can smile and tell you he loves you while he is planning to murder a person or murdering people including children. That is because man is made in the image and likeness of God and the evil one lashes out at man in many ways. It should come as no surprise when we see Churches and monasteries burned or destroyed by those who are not Christians. You seem to indicate and present some sort of disturbing notion of documentation of Russian atrocities in Chechnya as a reference to the evil things done by others as well. That is pathetic position to suggest or articulate. Maybe those atrocities had been committed by communist Russians, I don't know God knows, but I can tell you that wrong beliefs can infest people with "cancer". Christianity does not teach the same things that Islam does and Muslims are not Christians. So when a Muslim lights a candle or has a "vigil" they do not have the same things in mind that Christians should. It is good as to pray to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as Alice has mentioned that "He will forgive us all, Christians *and* Muslims for sins of hatred, religious triumphal and ego..."

However when a Christian commits a sin repentance and confession and communion are available. Islam does not consider the same things to be sins that Christians do.

Here is a simple example of what Islam teaches regarding Christianity;

"Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame" Surah 9:14

"Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior. " Surah 9:29.

The problem with your way of thinking Iconofile, is that you don't realize that by what they are instructed to believe by their belief system that they would cut off you hands so that you can not paint icons and much worse. Worse would be to crush Christianity, destroy the ark of salvation and prevent Christians from going to confession and communion. All of this and more is not in your mind when you visit websites and find candlelight vigils in Iran and Palestine after September 11, Islamic clerics renouncing the terrorists interpretation of Jihad, and documentation of Russian atrocities in Chechnya.

If you think your enemy is your friend because he is smiling at you, watch yourself.

You know there have been wars that have happened with God's divine knowledge and instruction. Saint Constantine in battle and in this sign conquer the Christian cross that is comes to mind.

Was Saint Constantine being hateful or did not many Churches get build which resulted in the salvation of many souls because those who died and stood up for the Orthodox faith stood firm in their convictions?

God have mercy on all of us.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Dear Marya,

Your thoughts are, in my opinion, (and most unfortunately), on the mark.

It sometimes sounds like world wide insanity doesn't it?

By the way, a belated welcome to the forum, and I like your little smiling coffee cup!

In Christ Jesus,
Alice