www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Is gay clergy Ok?

What I find so disturbing here, is that this topic has now become such a vast gray area of confusion that people are now often receiving mixed messages in their church regarding exactly what Catholic and Orthodox teaching is. Homosexual acts are gravely sinful under any and all circumstances period ! Is that really so difficult to teach or understand ?

Lawrence,

Quite so. Quite so. It makes one wonder how far to trust a priest if he can't be definitive about such a simple and clear topic. All one gets from some quarters in response to this topic is some sloppy incoherent nonsense. Christians are free to do two things about this and a host of other issues: 1. Love people and 2. Tell the truth. We love people unconditinally and we know that those who commit sin are lost, including homosexual sin. Why must our leaders try to confuse the faithful with anything contradictory? I don't like contemplating what seems obvious.

Dan L

Now, Dan! You are not being charitable, progressive, or politically correct. Of course, I am glad you are not being any of those things.

ByanTN,

Thank you kind sir. I disagree with only one accolade. I think it is charitable to tell the truth.

Dan L

I agree, but I meant you are not being charitable in the modernist, progressive sense of the word. It seems that when the dissenters don't like something, they just reinvent the vocabulary.

Hello Lawrence,

'gravely sinful'

Based upon what?

'difficult to teach/understand'

Evidently!


Folk here are clearly focusing upon perversions. Two faithful Christians, of either sex, in a godly, loving relationship are not perverts, period. Why is that so difficult to teach or understand?

As I made clear, this relates to some Protestants, not the Orthodox (evidently, since no one is willing to cite any cases). With the responses some are giving one could surmise that there is some sort of threat felt-- like what a few Protestants are doing will somehow infect Orthodoxy. As I said, that is not likely to happen. There seems no mechanism within Orthodoxy to approach the subject, much less overcome the deep-seated prejudices against any sexuality that is not heterosexual.

The fact remains that faithful Christians of many denominations live in the full light of day, in the full light of God, as homosexuals, lesbian or gay. Perhaps no Eastern Catholics/Orthodox know any gay or lesbian people who faithfully serve the Lord and faithfully live in monogamous relationships.... peace to all, wg

Hello francis,

Up and down America, it has been known for as long as statistics have been kept that almost all cases of pedophilia are committed by heterosexual men or men in heterosexual relationships (most men who have sex with other men in the military and in prison are also heterosexual!). It is indisputable.

Pedophilia, like rape, is about an abuse of power, not sex or a sexual act principally. This is also indisputable.

Are you saying that almost all Western Catholic clergy who commit this sin/crime are homosexual?!? Surely you don't mean to send that message to any here!?! The study you cite points to the fact that the Catholic priests who commit this sin/crime have a problem with power (and they are not the only ones with the problem-- they are acting out their problem in a way that is socially reprehensible, however). That is exactly what it points to. It points not to a rapid rise in the number of homosexual clergy. As Lawrence has pointed out, there are homosexual clergy in Western and Eastern settings who are faithful stewards of their calling to the priesthood.

Homosexuality has not been considered a disorder for many years now. Those who considered it a disorder beforehand did so based on erroneous understanding.

As to your reference to 'homosexual male culture' I can only say that faithful Christian homosexuals do not participate in that, whatever you think it is....

Let's work with some round numbers, OK. There are approx. 260 million Americans, approx. 130 million are male, and approx. 13 million are gay. How can one reasonably say that 13 million gay men (alone, never mind the lesbians) do not have a sexuality that God recognises... and this is just American figures. We cannot possibly take the following comment seriously: "If we simply ignore these issues and pretend that heterosexuality and homosexuality are two equally valid orientations, then we won't really solve the problem."

Being gay (or lesbian) does not invalidate one's sexuality. God forbid. peace to you, wg

Wild Goose,

You are confused, and you have rejected the perennial teaching of God in His Old and New Testaments and of His Church for 2,000 years, concerning the meaning and purpose of human sexuality.

You write:

"two faithful Christians, of either sex, in a godly, loving relationship are not perverts, period.

I ask you, on what do you base this confused statement?

Your statement contains several mistaken assumptions, among which are the admissibility of a sexual relationship between any "two faithful Christians" no matter what their gender(s), despite the fact that their status as "two faithful Christians" would be destroyed by entering into a relationship involving disordered sexual acts (whether fornication, adultery, or homosexual sex).

In the Scriptures and in Sacred Tradition, God mercifully reveals to His people the liberating truth about sex and about relationships. "In the beginning, God created them male and female, and on account of this a man leaves his mother and father and cleaves to his wife, and they shall become two in one flesh" (cf. Mat. 19).

But "any man who leaves his wife and takes another commmits adultery," (cf. Mat. 19). Moreover, St. Paul explains in the Epistle to the Romans that the wicked "exchanged the truth about God for a lie," and it was on account of this that God "handed them over to passions of ignominy," and thus "men, leaving behind the natural act with a woman, burned in their desires for one another, men committing acts of filth with men" (Rom 1:24-8).

Thus, the Church of God has consistently upheld this truth. The right to sexual intercourse is not a human right at all, but it is a right derived from the matrimonial state, in which a man and woman give to one another the "mutual, exclusive, and perpetual rights over the body for the sake of acts fit for procreation."

I pray that you will have the grace to accept the truth about God, and the truth about human sexuality as taught by the Scriptures and the Church.

LatinTrad

Hey Goose- beware of what you characterize as "indisputable", a term you throw around rather freely.
Many people are also afflicted with a tendency to violent temper, sexual attraction to children, or they fall in love with their sisters. As these impulses are experienced as "natural" does that mean they may be morally indulged? My sympathies to any who struggle with these disorders, but they are more fruit of the fall than evidence of moral legitimacy, whatever the numbers.
-Daniel

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

What I see happening here is that people are talking past each other, and therefore are missing each others points.

First, terms must be defined so that all can understand what we are talking about.

pedophilia

A pedophile is a person, most frequently a man, who focuses his sexual fantasies and behavior toward children. People who enjoy child pornography are pedophiles. Some pedophiles are sexually attracted only toward children and are not at all attracted toward adults. Pedophilia is usually a chronic condition. Main characteristics are:

*Repeatedly for at least 6 months, the patient has intense sexual desires, fantasies or behaviors concerning sexual activity with a sexually immature child (usually age 13 or under).

*This causes clinically important distress or impairs work, social or personal functioning.

*The patient is 16 or older and at least 5 years older than the child.

pederasty

is the erotic relationship between an adult male and a boy, generally one between the ages of twelve and seventeen, in which the older partner is attracted to the younger one who returns his affection.

Homosexual

An adult person who is sexually attracted to people of the same sex and not to people of the opposite sex.

Now here are some statistics on the number of homosexuals in the priesthood.

In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation; 15% homosexual; 5% bisexual.

According to Amanda Ripley of Time Magazine, estimates range from 15% to 50%.

According to Bill Blakemore of ABC News, "...nobody knows what percentage of the American priesthood is gay; estimates range from less than 10% to more than 30%."

A NBC report on celibacy and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation.

Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay.

During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay.

If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. However, as Father Donald Cozzens stated: "Beyond these estimates, of course, are priests who remain confused about their orientation and men who have so successfully denied their orientation, that in spite of predominately same-sex erotic fantasies, they insist that they are heterosexual." Many regard themselves as not homosexual because they have never acted on their fantasies, desire and orientation. To that might be added an unknown percentage of priests who have a bisexual orientation.

*************************************************
The Roots of Pedophilia

By: Dr. Sam Vaknin

Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children and act on their sexual fantasies. It is a startling fact that the etiology of this paraphilia is unknown. Pedophiles comes from all walks of life and have no common socio-economic background. Contrary to media-propagated myths, most of them had not been sexually abused in childhood and the vast majority of pedophiles are also drawn to adults of the opposite sex (are heterosexuals).

Only a few belong to the Exclusive Type - the ones who are tempted solely by kids. Nine tenths of all pedophiles are male. They are fascinated by preteen females, teenage males, or (more rarely) both.

Moreover, at least one fifth (and probably more) of the population have pedophiliac fantasies. The prevalence of child pornography and child prostitution prove it. Pedophiles start out as "normal" people and are profoundly shocked and distressed to discover their illicit sexual preference for the prepubertal. The process and mechanisms of transition from socially acceptable sexuality to much-condemned (and criminal) pedophilia are still largely mysterious.

Pedophiles seem to have narcissistic and antisocial (psychopathic) traits. They lack empathy for their victims and express no remorse for their actions. They are in denial and, being pathological confabulators, they rationalize their transgressions, claiming that the children were merely being educated for their own good and, anyhow, derived great pleasure from it.

The pedophile's ego-syntony rests on his alloplastic defenses. He generally tends to blame others (or the world or the "system") for his misfortunes, failures, and deficiencies. Pedophiles frequently accuse their victims of acting promiscuously, of "coming on to them", of actively tempting, provoking, and luring (or even trapping) them.

The pedophile - similar to the autistic patient - misinterprets the child's body language and inter-personal cues. His social communication skills are impaired and he fails to adjust information gained to the surrounding circumstances (for instance, to the kid's age and maturity).

Coupled with his lack of empathy, this recurrent inability to truly comprehend others cause the pedophile to objectify the targets of his lasciviousness. Pedophilia is, in essence, auto-erotic. The pedophile uses children's bodies to masturbate with. Hence the success of the Internet among pedophiles: it offers disembodied, anonymous, masturbatory sex. Children in cyberspace are mere representations - often nothing more than erotic photos and screen names.

It is crucial to realize that pedophiles are not enticed by the children themselves, by their bodies, or by their budding and nubile sexuality (remember Nabokov's Lolita?). Rather, pedophiles are drawn to what children symbolize, to what preadolescents stand for and represent.

To the pedophile ...

I. Sex with children is "free" and "daring"

Sex with subteens implies freedom of action with impunity. It enhances the pedophile's magical sense of omnipotence and immunity. By defying the authority of the state and the edicts of his culture and society, the pedophile experiences an adrenaline rush to which he gradually becomes addicted. Illicit sex becomes the outlet for his urgent need to live dangerously and recklessly.

The pedophile is on a quest to reassert control over his life. Studies have consistently shown that pedophilia is associated with anomic states (war, famine, epidemics) and with major life crises (failure, relocation, infidelity of spouse, separation, divorce, unemployment, bankruptcy, illness, death of the offender's nearest and dearest).

It is likely - though hitherto unsubstantiated by research - that the typical pedophile is depressive and with a borderline personality (low organization and fuzzy personal boundaries). Pedophiles are reckless and emotionally labile. The pedophile's sense of self-worth is volatile and dysregulated. He is likely to suffer from abandonment anxiety and be a codependent or counterdependent.

Paradoxically, it is by seemingly losing control in one aspect of his life (sex) that the pedophile re-acquires a sense of mastery. The same mechanism is at work in the development of eating disorders. An inhibitory deficit is somehow magically perceived as omnipotence.

II. Sex with children is corrupt and decadent

The pedophile makes frequent (though unconscious) use of projection and projective identification in his relationships with children. He makes his victims treat him the way he views himself - or attributes to them traits and behaviors that are truly his.

The pedophile is aware of society's view of his actions as vile, corrupt, forbidden, evil, and decadent (especially if the pedophiliac act involves incest). He derives pleasure from the sleazy nature of his pursuits because it tends to sustain his view of himself as "bad", "a failure", "deserving of punishment", and "guilty".

In extreme (mercifully uncommon) cases, the pedophile projects these torturous feelings and self-perceptions onto his victims. The children defiled and abused by his sexual attentions thus become "rotten", "bad objects", guilty and punishable. This leads to sexual sadism, lust rape, and snuff murders.

III. Sex with children is a reenactment of a painful past

Many pedophile truly bond with their prey. To them, children are the reification of innocence, genuineness, trust, and faithfulness - qualities that the pedophile wishes to nostalgically recapture.

The relationship with the child provides the pedophile with a "safe passage" to his own, repressed and fearful, inner child. Through his victim, the pedophile gains access to his suppressed and thwarted emotions. It is a fantasy-like second chance to reenact his childhood, this time benignly. The pedophile's dream to make peace with his past comes true transforming the interaction with the child to an exercise in wish fulfillment.

IV. Sex with children is a shared psychosis

The pedophile treats "his" chosen child as an object, an extension of himself, devoid of a separate existence and denuded of distinct needs. He finds the child's submissiveness and gullibility gratifying. He frowns on any sign of personal autonomy and regards it as a threat. By intimidating, cajoling, charming, and making false promises, the abuser isolates his prey from his family, school, peers, and from the rest of society and, thus, makes the child's dependence on him total.

To the pedophile, the child is a "transitional object" - a training ground on which to exercise his adult relationship skills. The pedophile erroneously feels that the child will never betray and abandon him, therefore guaranteeing "object constancy".

The pedophile � stealthily but unfailingly � exploits the vulnerabilities in the psychological makeup of his victim. The child may have low self-esteem, a fluctuating sense of self-worth, primitive defence mechanisms, phobias, mental health problems, a disability, a history of failure, bad relations with parents, siblings, teachers, or peers, or a tendency to blame herself, or to feel inadequate (autoplastic neurosis). The kid may come from an abusive family or environment � which conditioned her or him to expect abuse as inevitable and "normal". In extreme and rare cases � the victim is a masochist, possessed of an urge to seek ill-treatment and pain.

The pedophile is the guru at the center of a cult. Like other gurus, he demands complete obedience from his "partner". He feels entitled to adulation and special treatment by his child-mate. He punishes the wayward and the straying lambs. He enforces discipline.

The child finds himself in a twilight zone. The pedophile imposes on him a shared psychosis, replete with persecutory delusions, "enemies", mythical narratives, and apocalyptic scenarios if he is flouted. The child is rendered the joint guardian of a horrible secret.

The pedophile's control is based on ambiguity, unpredictability, fuzziness, and ambient abuse. His ever-shifting whims exclusively define right versus wrong, desirable and unwanted, what is to be pursued and what to be avoided. He alone determines rights and obligations and alters them at will.

The typical pedophile is a micro-manager. He exerts control over the minutest details and behaviors. He punishes severely and abuses withholders of information and those who fail to conform to his wishes and goals.

The pedophile does not respect the boundaries and privacy of the (often reluctant and terrified) child. He ignores his or her wishes and treats children as objects or instruments of gratification. He seeks to control both situations and people compulsively.

The pedophile acts in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes often. He alternates between emphasizing the minutest faults (devalues) and exaggerating the looks, talents, traits, and skills (idealizes) of the child. He is wildly unrealistic in his expectations � which legitimizes his subsequent abusive conduct.

Narcissistic pedophiles claim to be infallible, superior, talented, skillful, omnipotent, and omniscient. They often lie and confabulate to support these unfounded claims and to justify their actions. Most pedophiles suffer from cognitive deficits and reinterpret reality to fit their fantasies.

In extreme cases, the pedophile feels above the law � any kind of law. This grandiose and haughty conviction leads to criminal acts, incestuous or polygamous relationships, and recurrent friction with the authorities.

V. The pedophile regards sex with children as an ego-booster

Subteen children are, by definition, "inferior". They are physically weaker, dependent on others for the fulfillment of many of their needs, cognitively and emotionally immature, and easily manipulated. Their fund of knowledge is limited and their skills restricted. His relationships with children buttress the pedophile's twin grandiose delusions of omnipotence and omniscience. Compared to his victims, the pedophiles is always the stronger, the wiser, the most skillful and well-informed.

VI. Sex with children guarantees companionship

Inevitably, the pedophile considers his child-victims to be his best friends and companions. Pedophiles are lonely, erotomanic, people.

The pedophile believes that he is in love with (or simply loves) the child. Sex is merely one way to communicate his affection and caring. But there are other venues.

To show his keen interest, the common pedophile keeps calling the child, dropping by, writing e-mails, giving gifts, providing services, doing unsolicited errands "on the kid's behalf", getting into relationships with the preteen's parents, friends, teachers, and peers, and, in general, making himself available (stalking) at all times. The pedophile feels free to make legal, financial, and emotional decisions for the child.

The pedophile intrudes on the victim's privacy, disrespects the child's express wishes and personal boundaries and ignores his or her emotions, needs, and preferences. To the pedophile, "love" means enmeshment and clinging coupled with an overpowering separation anxiety (fear of being abandoned).

Moreover, no amount of denials, chastising, threats, and even outright hostile actions convince the erotomaniac that the child not in love with him. He knows better and will make the world see the light as well. The child and his guardians are simply unaware of what is good for the kid. The pedophile determinedly sees it as his or her task to bring life and happiness into the child's dreary and unhappy existence.

Thus, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the pedophile is convinced that his feelings are reciprocated - in other words, that the child is equally infatuated with him or her. He interprets everything the child does (or refrains from doing) as coded messages confessing to and conveying the child's interest in and eternal devotion to the pedophile and to the "relationship".

Some (by no means all) pedophiles are socially-inapt, awkward, schizoid, and suffer from a host of mood and anxiety disorders. They may also be legitimately involved with the child (e.g., stepfather, former spouse, teacher, gym instructor, sibling) - or with his parents (for instance, a former boyfriend, a one night stand, colleagues or co-workers). They are driven by their all-consuming loneliness and all-pervasive fantasies.

Consequently, pedophiles react badly to any perceived rejection by their victims. They turn on a dime and become dangerously vindictive, out to destroy the source of their mounting frustration. When the "relationship" looks hopeless, some pedophiles violently embark on a spree of self-destruction.

Pedophilia is to some extent a culture-bound syndrome, defined as it is by the chronological age of the child involved. Ephebophilia, for instance - the exclusive sexual infatuation with teenagers - is not considered to be a form of pedophilia (or even paraphilia).

In some cultures, societies and countries (Afghanistan, for instance) the age of consent is as low as 12. The marriageable age in Britain until the end of the nineteenth century was 10. Pedophilia is a common and socially-condoned practice in certain tribal societies and isolated communities (the Island of Pitcairn).

It would, therefore, be wise to redefine pedophilia as an attraction to or sexual acts with prepubescent children or with people of the equivalent mental age (e.g., retarded) in contravention of social, legal, and cultural accepted practices.

The above is used with the author\'s consent. [samvak.tripod.com]

As Lawrence has pointed out, there are homosexual clergy in Western and Eastern settings who are faithful stewards of their calling to the priesthood.

Wild Goose

Though I'm sure it was an honest mistake, I would POSITIVELY never make such a statement.

Dan Lauffer rights that "I think it is charitable to tell the truth." Sounds utterly upright. But it is not always accurate by any means. Some circumstances in which truth-telling lacks charity are relatively trivial (If your neighbors ask if you like their new car, it is discourteous to say "frankly, no; I think the color is putrid"). Other circumstances are not trivial at all - detraction, for example, is a serious sin.

That hilarious book "Games Christians Play" gives another example. At the prayer meetings, someone rises and invites "let's all pray for poor Mrs. Jenkins" - which of course is the prelude for a lengthy, detailed explanation of why the speaker believes Mrs. Jenkins to be in special need of prayer.

Which of us has not met the sort of person who claims "I'm very candid - I always say just what I think". And how often have we not reflected that somehow these very candid people never seem to think anything pleasant?

If you have ever been invited (importuned?) to attend your neighbor's five-year-old niece's piano recital (she's playing "Amaryllis") you will know the value and importance of a good Social Lie (for that one, I recommend: "Oh, I'm SO sorry. I'd love to, but I'm afraid I shall have a subsequent engagement!")

I could go on at great and boring length. My point is that the assertion that itis charitable to tell the truth is not universally accurate.

Incognitus

According to Wild Goose:
WG, you have been asked to cite your sources for these "indisputable" facts by both Francis and myself. You have not done so. So far, the only factual evidence we have are the links presented by both Francis and I, as well as the statistics and definitions from Yuhannon. Read the definition of pedophilia.

You further state:

WG, please read the associated NRB report that goes with the John Jay study. Here is the link yet again NRB Study [usccb.org] .

How you can draw the conclusions you do escapes me. The study is clear that 81% of the abuse was homosexual in nature, and that most of the cases involved children or adolescents. It points to many sexually disordered individuals entering the priesthood for many reasons. It speaks to a rise of a "gay subculture" in seminaries in the 1970s. So yes, it does point to a rise in homosexuality in the priesthood. It goes so far as to state that in some seminaries the culture was so pervasive that "it had the effect of discouraging heterosexual men from entering the priesthood."

The source of this abuse was not "a problem with power", it was sexual disorders. In the commission of these sins the disordered priests abused their power, a big difference.

As Latin Trad says WG, you are confused. We are talking about the position of the Church here, and how the Church defines this behaviour, not society at large. The Church teaching on the matter is clear. We are discussing this from a Catholic perspective.

Yuhannon,

Thanks for the data and definitions.

The original thread here was "Is gay clergy OK?" When I compare the data Yuhannon includes with the results of the NRB study, it is clear that the proportion of those in the priesthood with homosexual orientation is in many cases estimated to be greater than in society at large. This seems to confirm the NRB results concerning individuals who are attracted to the priesthood for the wrong reasons. That is, to deny or hide a sexual disorder or orientation, hoping celibacy will solve the problem. This is not healthy, folks.

My answer remains no. Screen the candidates, train them with better oversight and teaching, and fix the problem.

It is NOT indisputable, and you saying it over and over does not make it so.

The fact is that most clergy abuse in America was committed on teenage boys. That is indisputable - unless you can show some proof that that John Jay report was incorrect.

Whereas I acknowledge that homosexuality and pedophila are not the same thing, sex with teenage boys is not pedophilia. It is often the result of the male homosexual culture in this country, which objectifies young males. And to think that some clergy in this country are not part of that culture is simply being blind to reality. One of the abusive priests (Paul Shanley) was at the founding meeting of NAMBLA - the National Man/Boy Love Association! Other priests have been arrested for "cruising" in gay parks and bars - searching for underage boys. This is the sad reality.

I am not trying to demonize homosexuals in any way. My best friend from high school is homosexual, and he is currently serving 15 years in military prison for sex acts against a (male) minor, because his disorder (homosexuality) - which was not controlled in any way - led him to be attracted to younger and younger men - until he finally crossed the underage "barrier". I have talked with him a lot since his imprisonment, and his depictions of the "gay" lifestyle are very sad. His struggle is immense, and I have a deep love for him and pray daily for him. Yet in no way does it help him, or other homosexuals, including priests, to act like his homosexuality is not a disorder. The most loving thing to do, in fact, is to acknowledge this fact. It is not the only disorder in the world, nor is it even the worst. But it is a result of the Fall. If the Church does not strongly preach against the homosexual lifestyle - especially among her clergy - then we will not be able to completely solve the abuse situation. In fact, I would go so far as to say we won't even make a dent in it.