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Originally posted by incognitus:
I can only assume that the overwhelming number of mis-spellings in his post are intended to be in some way ironic. If that is the case, does "Oh Terpora, O mores" refer to moral turpitude? Incognitus, Based on his prior posts, typing was obviously not Cliff's major at Holy Cross :rolleyes: . Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
Based on his prior posts, typing was obviously not Cliff's major at Holy Cross :rolleyes: .
Many years,
Neil Now now guys - that's not nice  Somwhere Cliif has shown/told us that he's a newcomer to this mode of conversation. I find it bad enough typing without making misstrokes - but coping with spelling and grammar as well - not easy for us oldies. We try .......................... Anhelyna
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Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love: Now now guys - that's not nice
Somwhere Cliif has shown/told us that he's a newcomer to this mode of conversation.
I find it bad enough typing without making misstrokes - but coping with spelling and grammar as well - not easy for us oldies.
We try ..........................
Anhelyna, I apologize if I came across as unkind; it wasn't my intent. (Truth be told, I was actually trying to soften the effect of my friend, Incognitus', comment.) And this "youngster" is probably not far behind you "oldies". Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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I am no spring chicken either. I'm also a technoboob, and am capable of making some memorable slips of the keyboard. But that posting approached illegibility. For the sake of Christ, forgive me.
Incognitus
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Nobody has yet informed us just what films were on offer at this film-fest. Pornography is not to my taste, but La Cage au Folles (did I just mis-spell that?) is one of the funnies movies I've ever seen (the American version is called The Birdcage). So would someone tell us what the ND films were? I'm a grad-school alumnus of Notre Dame, so I suppose I should declare an interest.
Incognitus
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Originally posted by incognitus:
Nobody has yet informed us just what films were on offer at this film-fest. Pornography is not to my taste, but La Cage au Folles (did I just mis-spell that?) is one of the funnies movies I've ever seen (the American version is called The Birdcage). So would someone tell us what the ND films were? I'm a grad-school alumnus of Notre Dame, so I suppose I should declare an interest. .oO(wonder if he realizes that he just gave up a biographical fact? Well, I ain't telling him; otherwise, he'll go back and edit it out!  ) Incognitus, This is the Chicago Trib article
By Ron Grossman
Tribune staff reporter
Published February 11, 2004
SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Last year, the Princeton Review's annual survey of American colleges ranked the University of Notre Dame as the most unfriendly to homosexuals. This week, the school's Hesburgh Library is the site of the first ND Queer Film Festival.
"You have to understand what a breakthrough this is," said Richard Friedman, a fifth-year student participating in the event. "The university's administration had even barred gay groups from advertising in the student newspaper."
On many campuses, eyebrows wouldn't be raised by a gay film series featuring titles such as "Jim in Bold," which kicks off the series Wednesday.
During freshman orientation at state schools and secular colleges, it is commonplace to see the information booth of a gay-and-lesbian group.
But that is not the case at universities affiliated with a religious denomination that considers homosexuality sinful.
Yet even at some such schools, things are changing quickly, given society's increasing acceptance of alternative lifestyles. Deans and presidents are feeling the pressure of gay and lesbian students, newly determined to have an accepted place on campus.
"The landscape has changed," said Nicholas Sakurai, an official of the United States Student Association, which is preparing a guide to forming homosexual campus organizations. "Young people have been coming out in droves in high school since the '90s. They're now in college and challenging administrators who would deny them a place in campus life."
For instance, Boston College, a Catholic university run by Jesuit priests, extended official recognition to a gay group last May, after many years of denying previous requests.
"This film fest is our way of forcing people to recognize there is an active gay community here," said Liam Dacey, a Notre Dame senior. "There's been a fear on this campus to come out."
Films in the series include "The Opposite of Sex," a gay-straight-gay love triangle, and "Hedwig and the Angry Inch," the story of a transgender rock star.
Dacey hardly expects everyone on campus, let alone old grads, to rejoice in their alma mater hosting a gay-film series.
Christopher Brophy, a Greek major and publisher of the Irish Rover, a conservative student newspaper, said the film festival crosses what should be a hard-and-fast line.
"We support tolerance for homosexuals," Brophy said. "We don't feel it is appropriate at a Catholic school to promote viewing of movies that show inappropriate behavior."
Sean Vinck, a third-year law student, is also unhappy with the prospect of the ND Queer Film Festival.
"The fact that Notre Dame would allow it to take place on campus points to an institutional confusion," Vinck said. "The university claims to adhere to the teachings of the church about a homosexual lifestyle, but at the same time it bends to modern culture's acceptance of it."
But even though the festival is groundbreaking, its Byzantine format reflects the hoops a Catholic university has to go through when dealing with homosexual students.
The festival was the brainchild of Dacey, who has been active in gay and lesbian groups on campus. But because those groups are not officially recognized student organizations, they couldn't sponsor the film series.
"Because of Roman Catholic teaching, the administration feels we can't have an organized gay student group at Notre Dame," said Sister Mary Louise Gude, assistant vice president for student affairs.
But because the university distinguishes between homosexual activity--forbidden by church law--and people who happen to be homosexual--whose humanity it recognizes--Gude chairs a Committee on Gay and Lesbian Needs.
According to its mission statement, the committee brings faculty, administrators and students together "to assist in the implementation of campus-wide educational programming on gay and lesbian issues." But because those educational efforts are limited to reducing anti-gay discrimination and homophobic behavior, it also couldn't sponsor the festival.
That left it up to the Department of Film, Television and Theatre to give the festival its imprimatur. By ivory-tower tradition, academic departments have the autonomy to bring to campus any extracurricular event they judge intellectually worthy, despite what the administration might think of it.
"Once Film and Theatre signed on as a sponsor, we could put posters up advertising the festival," Dacey said. "Up to now, we didn't have access to bulletin boards. For that, you have to be an officially recognized group."
The cost of the ND Queer Film Festival--$12,000 to $15,000--is being born by GALA-ND/SMC, an organization of gay and lesbian alumni of Notre Dame and its sister school, St. Mary's College. GALA has more than 850 members.
Some gay grads look back on their Notre Dame experience with anger and memories of pain--among them Don Roos, the festival's featured speaker. He went on to a Hollywood career, writing and directing films such as "The Opposite of Sex," "Bounce," and "Happy Endings."
"I'm only doing this for the kids there, to show them there's an alternative," Roos said. "I've never contributed to Notre Dame in any way, because in my years it was such a repressive place."
Some church-related universities derive their position on gay students from biblical proscriptions, such as in Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination."
Wheaton College, west of Chicago, reports that it neither has a gay-student group nor is it likely to sanction any. Its most famous alumnus is evangelist Billy Graham, and the college identifies itself as a Christian institution.
On the other hand, Chicago's Catholic universities, DePaul and Loyola, have gay-student organizations that get funding like any other student group.
So, too, does Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., a federal judge having ruled that by withholding funding for gay groups, it had been practicing discrimination. But while complying with the court's order, the Jesuit school was careful to explain just what it was and was not committing itself to.
"This new policy does not use the term recognition," Georgetown noted in a document.
That kind of balancing act is likely to continue at Notre Dame for some time, said Gude, who has to mediate between gay students' demands and the administration's policies.
"Whatever I do, it's not right for somebody," Gude said. "Yet we'll never again see the kind of hostility to gays that was evident years ago."
Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by incognitus:
I am no spring chicken either. I'm also a technoboob, and am capable of making some memorable slips of the keyboard. But that posting approached illegibility. For the sake of Christ, forgive me.
Incognitus Incognitus Ain't caught you out..... yet..... but if you keep giving out hints as to your identity ...... Actually when in the early days after I came on this Forum - i posted very little being conscious that I, a Latin, was here on a degree of sufferance :p but one day I did post a rather long post. I thought it was a good one but I got slated for it  I was told that spellings errors , providing they were not too many ,would be forgiven but would I please not post looooooooooooong paragraphs. This puzzled me for a while and then I realised that these became very difficult to read on the relatively small screen. If there are any errors that I have not identified in this one please forgive - I'm somewaht distracted by the CD to which I am listening ------- Golden Echoes of Kyiv - the Divine Liturgy -sung by the Ukrainian Bandurst Chorus . Truly wonderful. Anhelyna
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Tony- Well the link you provided reads, in part, "...married people practicing birth control are not necessarily deprived of Holy Communion."
I grant that Orthodox approval of contraception is somewhat more nuanced than in secular, or even Protestant circles, but the fact remains that outside of ROCOR or probably other small, canonically problematic groups it is accepted. You ask for proof when even the link you supply says this! And everything I have ever read in print or on the internet from mainstream Orthodox sources confirms my contention. I grant that there are those within Orthodoxy working to restore the traditional ban on artificial contraception and I grant that probably the numbers [percentage-wise] of Orthodox who do not practice contraception is equivalent to the numbers of Catholics who abstain from this sin but the fact remains that it is sanctioned by the Orthodox Churches. Do an internet search of "orthodox church -contraception" for an abundance of evidence of this, which is after all, common knowledge. So far as I know, the only religious bodies which hold to the ancient teaching are the Catholics,ROCOR [and perhaps other small Orthodox bodies], the Amish [who no doubt have a much higher compliance among their people], a few conservative Mennonites, and the Bruderhof.
I disagree with Neil and Cliff. Educating Catholic students about vice is not achieved by entertainment that glorifies sin.
And I am not arguing that the Roman Church is not full of scandals and abuses! Just offering some perspective...
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Dearest Brother in Christ, Daniel the Iconophile (!), You know, I really hate the tone of this discussion; I have no hostility toward the Orthodox Churches, and it kind of broke my heart to annoy dear, sweet Alice... I ask forgiveness if I came across curt, (and not so sweet :rolleyes: ) in my defensiveness to you. I still love you in Christ, dear brother.  Blessings! Alice
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Perhaps the hostilities were to do with the silliness of the original...Oh, tis a slippery slope...next thing they will be saying homosexuality is OK if sex that doesn't lead to procreation is OK...BUT "SHEESH" All sex must be within marriage...so...tell me...how do THOSE two views coincide..unless you are from San Francisco or Massachusetts?
OR maybe it was the "hot button" issues over the cannonicity/autocephaly?
I think some should be a bit more careful of posts that might inflame others as one heads towards the Great Fast...
And more tolerant and forgiving of the posts of those whose traditions are obviously not ones own.
The Great Fast is not the time to critique someone else's Church...From the tenor of those posts, I would gather that Tony is an OCA member. Making a poor showing, too, of understanding that members of another Church may not understand the issues of his...but under provokation.
Forgive MY post, but this annoyed ME greatly...the issue at hand had turned aside in squabbling.
Forgive me, a sinner.
Gaudior
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Dear Alice and everyone,
I never post in anger, and I never post to annoy or insult anyone. I do speak the truth as I understand it and I take no offense if others do the same; if I cannot defend my position it is not worthy of my continued adherence. I understand that many people take it personally if someone disagrees with them or criticizes. I personally have always enjoyed the give and take of spirited discussion as long as it doesn't descend into nastiness and as long as all parties are playing fair and are seeking the truth. As a result, I have many friends with whom I agree not at all across the religious and political spectrum. I think if one is going to engage in this sort of discussion we all ought to resolve not to take disagreement personally and to refrain from ad hominem arguments.
And Alice, you have always seemed such a sweetie that I was saddened by your perceived annoyance. I understand that the issues we have been discussing are not abstract theological ones but intensely personal but we, I would hope, are all truth seekers here, even if that truth requires some personal discomfort. And the truth in this case is that all Christian bodies opposed artificial means of birth control until 1930, when the Anglicans lead the way to its acceptance. I only ask if this was not a concession to the spirit of the world, leading to all sorts of iniquity.
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RE: The topic of the thread.
Should we recommend that Notre Dame purchase several viewings/blocks of the Passion movie for its students? or will this movie be considered too controversial for a religious-affiliated college?
RE: the Tribune article.
"But because the university distinguishes between homosexual activity--forbidden by church law--and people who happen to be homosexual--whose humanity it recognizes--Gude chairs a Committee on Gay and Lesbian Needs."
Is that like saying that the Church distinguishes between adulterous activities (not OK) and people who "happen to be" adulterers (OK)? or between murderous activities (not OK) and people who "happen to be" adulterers (OK)? or between perverse activities (not OK) and people who "happen to be" perverse (OK)? or pedophilic activities (not OK) and people who "happen to be" pedophiles (OK)?
Can one be an adulterer if one doesn't commit adultery? Can one be a murderer if one doesn't commit murder? Can one be a pervert if one doesn't commit perversities? Can on be a pedophile if one doesn't commit pedophilia?
Do we automatically label people if they have a tendancy, a temptation, or "happen to be" in a pure pressur situation? Does the Lord's Prayer get taught anymore? Does Paul's letter to the Romans (especially Chapter 1) get noticed?
Or do we just reinvent meanings?
Joe Thur
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Originally posted by J Thur:
RE: The topic of the thread.
Should we recommend that Notre Dame purchase several viewings/blocks of the Passion movie for its students? or will this movie be considered too controversial for a religious-affiliated college?
Joe Thur Maybe you should take that up with them , Joe if you were serious about your statement. Not that Mel Gibson sets the trend in Christianity or should.
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Do you suppose there is a department at the school that would risk it?
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Yes, I'm a grad school alumnus of Notre Dame. So are many thousands of other people! The article on the film festival is interesting, though it doesn't make me wish that I had been present (unless, perhaps, to see the ghost of Father Hesburgh writhing in coils at the very idea). However, I note with keen interest that the festival is said to have had a "Byzantine format". Now that sounds downright bizarre!
Suggestion: can we all agree that few people would be bothered to join this forum if we/they did not have a serious appreciation of Eastern Orthodoxy? [Most of us have no doubt been to Eastern Orthodox services on various occasions, but I strenuously doubt that any statistically significant proportion of this happy talk-fest are accustomed to attend gay film festivals!]
Incognitus
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