www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall At Notre Dame, gay film fest

Tony,

Daniel did not say all sex open to life is licit. It may be natural, philosophically speaking, but the Fathers, East and West, condemned sexuality activity outside of marriage, even if "natural", as immoral.

The late Father Meyendorf questioned if "periodic abstinence" was really "natural". I surmise he is questioning if any manipulation of sexual activity (within marriage) is really "natural" just because medical control is not employed.

Dear Michael, I agree with you! I would suggest, however, that it is because of the size of the Catholic Church that such glaring gaps between Church teaching and the behavior of individuals and institutions exists. Such gaps exist among the Orthodox; but because of their relatively small size and obscurity- they are barely on the radar screen to most Americans- not much attention is given them. I mean, I knew of an abortionist in Virginia who was a member in good standing in his Orthodox parish and I had an Orthodox seminarian make a pass at me once when hitch-hiking! I don't generalize from these experiences; I chalk it up to human nature. I'm sure if Orthodoxy were as big as Roman Catholicism and had comparatively big institutions it would have similarly big scandals. Notre Dame has for years been an embarrassment to faithful Catholics.

Dear Deacon,

iconophile appealed, as far as I can see, in this way "You may continue to oppose this on fideistic grounds, but philosophically, you are sunk." My response was in kind. If it is with philosophy that you will build the house so be it. I think that "philosophically" it does not hold water. As far as I am concerned (and I know this flys in the face of Thomists, etc., God is not subject to philosophy).

Tony

In Russia, Ukraine, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Georgia and other places Orthodoxy is "as big" ratio-wise or bigger than RCism in the USA. Please tell me of the "similarly big scandals" I am sure you can dig up something, not just hearsay please.

Of course God is not subject to philosophy, but for we humans intellectual consistency is a necessary thing, if we are to be true to our God-given nature.
As for similarly big scandals in Eastern Europe, how about the cooperation of the Orthodox Churches with the Communists? Often at the expense of the lives and property of Byzantine Catholics? I'd say this sort of scandal puts Notre Dame to shame!

iconophile,

With much respect, the ever-memorable Fr. Meyendorff cannot be thought of as the definitive voice on this subject.

You have failed to provide any substantiation for any of your claims.

What is the "canonical problem" to which you refer? In your response to Alice you wrote "Indeed there seems to me to be considerable confusion within Orthodoxy regarding canonicity. To cite one example, is the OCA an autocephalous body? They say so and are recognized by the MP but the EP doesn't recognize them as such, nor does the GOA." You certainly seem to be equating canonicity with recognition of rank.

The EP does not dispute the canonicity of the OCA.

But you only have to look at the situation of the UGCC and the "Patriarchate" for a similar situation.

And, why "so-called canonical"?

Tony

I think what you are saying is indeed being true to our fallen nature, not our God-given one.

Faith is vastly different than something that can be "proven" by philosophy.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" said the Apostle in Hebrews 11:1. I think there is certainly a lack of intellectual consistency in believing in the resurrection of both Christ and the dead. Yet, I believe it. It is a matter of faith.

Tony- are you reading my responses or just going off on a monologue? I said that the GO do not dispute the CANONICITY of the OCA, only its claims to autocephalous status. Do you dispute this?
Are you stating that the mainstream Orthodox Churches condemn artificial birth control? Can you give me documentation for this claim?
And can you explain how our God-given nature can tolerate intellectual inconsistency? The Resurrection of Our Blessed Lord is outside the realms of reason; moral theology is not.

iconophile, let me see. This is what you wrote First you say that there is a problem with "canonicity" then "to cite one example" you go to the OCA. I asked you on more than one occasion what you mean by canonicity, you have not answered. You, not I, posted the above equating canonicity with recognition of autocephaly. Read my posts, I have asked you what you mean over and over, I am not the one engaging in a monologue.

I have stated what I consider to be the canonical inconsistencies of the Orthodox Churches: the Catholic Church recognizes anyone who is in apostolic succession and who professes the Apostolic faith as expressed in the ancient creeds as possessing valid sacraments; the Orthodox do not. Does ROCOR in your opinion possess valid sacraments? If so, they are not in communion with the EP, the usual standard of canonicity. And how can it not be considered a canonical problem to disagree about what constitutes an autocephelous Church? And are you going to answer my question? Do the mainstream Orthodox Churches condemn artificial contraception? Can you document this? Do you have no response to the cooperation of the Orthodox Churches with the Communists, often entailing the martyrdom of Eastern Catholics and the confiscation of their churches? Are you going to address these problems?
You know, I really hate the tone of this discussion; I have no hostility toward the Orthodox Churches, and it kind of broke my heart to annoy dear, sweet Alice...

iconophile,

You are the one who said then you said again I asked you to substantiate that. You have not done so.

In an earlier response I wrote Yet you ask me If you had read my post you would have seen that I was saying it is to the best of my knowledge not regulated. Now, I asked you on the first page of this thread for substantion for your unconditional claim, where is it? Now you ask me for the same for my conditional claim? Good grief! Play by the rules!

Tony

A link regarding birth control:

The control of the conception of a ...ely fleshly, lustful satisfaction, etc. [oca.org]

a GAY fil festival at Norte Dame? WHY NOT? Norte Dame as an educational institutioon is supposed to help young ADUKTS live in a very secular society Since we now have Gay Politicians, actors, priests and bishops Why should we expect colloge students to bed COMPLETLY IGNORANT abouty a subject that or society is now engaging is community dialog of how to accept It is terribleds to allow a james Baldwin book in the library because he is 'bBlack or because he is Gay. In my day of course the poblem idi not arise There was talk of "THE SIN TOO HORIBLE TO MANE AND THE CRIME TOO IVEL LTO DESCRIBE Some pundits ans well as myself wish we could go beckd to the ldays of a perviersion too horrible to describe rather that hve to be blatantly informed every time one turnes on the TV (I dont turn on the TV any more these days)HOLY MOTHER THE CHURCH is supposed to be In the Worldf But not Of the World How do slupposed trhe next geration of Catholic leaders are to be informed on phow dto deal with this issue in REAL LIFE if they are not allowed to learn about it while freceiveing an education. At holy Cross College we studied Carl marx and strudied the socielogy of the Soviet union That did not mean the the Jesuits wantted to turn us into Communists but thet wre were being EDUCATED to live as leaders during the cold war in a bi-polar world. Is STICKING ONES HEAD IN THE SAND REALLY THE ONLY ACCEDPTSABLE METHOD FOR cATHOLIC eDUCATION TO DEAL WITH ISSUES OF CURRENT CONTROVERSY. i wonder, but I am old, lonely and unaable to watch TV without my sensabililties being assaulted beyond my ability oto acceptr the current state of affairs. When I was in high school tthe Brother teaching Latin assured us that someday we waould say Oh Terpora, O mores with Cicero But I dont think even he understood the collapse of our society.. But we must educate aour young leaders dto cope wityh the future. Also as an aside, i dont think it would be advisable to show ones' backside at a gay film fesstival It might be taken as an invitation By the way, for those in communion with Rome, not the Orthodaox, the RC chaurch authorizes Gay Ministries in its Dioceses Icleveland Ohio there are two Parish Churches, Ones on the West Side and one on the East Side that have ancitve Gay Ministries but no separate or special Church services In fact the one on the East Sude has at least once but up Rainbow Colores Sacristy Candles by the Altoar on Gay Freedim Day before they have thre parade... If we do not allowdf College Students to begin to understand what is happening, How are those who join the priesthood c9oing to cope with theese issues in the future There are Colloeg Prof's on the site. I would be interested in their response Especially Orthodaos Catholic on the educational merits of this issue.. It is close to allowing the Catholic universities to allow fa course on Compaitive Religions MY GOD Having students in a Catholic College studing Judiasm and hinduisn and God for Sake Islam.!!! I gues Catholic Schools are now supposed to promote Ignorance. At Holy Cross The Jesuits actually hired a Jewish individaul to teach Phiolosphy so that we would be prepared to live in a cosmmoploitan worrld but I guess it is better to stick ones head in the Sand

Cliff,

On reflection, I do believe that I must agree with you, your Holy Cross affiliation notwithstanding (BC '64).

Please, no one try to drag me into the discussion; I'm not interested in and won't bother debating the topic. I'm merely expressing my personal opinion, which happens to concur with Cliff's. The existence of a gay lifestyle is a reality in today's society and the Church has chosen to acknowledge, though not approve it. This, of necessity, suggests that an informed Catholic should be aware of and understand it, regardless of one's personal view of it.

That an entertainment venue for those who engage in or support the lifestyle might become a vehicle by which such occurs is obviously an unintended consequence and one can certainly argue that the university didn't set out to fulfill any noble educational purpose and, thus merits no credit for doing so. I say, make the best of what may have been an ill-advised decision. It's not clear to me, anyway, whether ND "allowed" or "sponsored" the festival and I don't care (they didn't ask me to underwrite its cost ).

Many years,

Neil

Lonely Hermit informs us that "When I was in high school tthe Brother teaching Latin assured us that someday we waould say Oh Terpora, O mores". I don't recall Cicero saying that. But since Lonely Hermit attended high school and studied Latin, I can only assume that the overwhelming number of mis-spellings in his post are intended to be in some way ironic. If that is the case, does "Oh Terpora, O mores" refer to moral turpitude?
Incognitus