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I wish more Orthodox would "hijack" this forum!

you go girl! Miss Alice has all of her duckies in a row, and she knows what time it is, yes she does. that's right. tell me I'm lying!

I don't see the problem, since there is no problem to see. perjhaps the reason why there are canonical Orthodox Priests acting as moderators, is because there are more of them than there are EC Priests. as far as alleged ECs who didn't get permission to come over from Roman Catholicism to the East, now that is patently silly, John, honestly, bro, you should know better, and I know that you do. if your heart is in the East, you are in the East, and "permission" is but a final formality to the whole process. I don't see canonical Orthodox moderators trying to sheep steal ECs. we ECs are a tad too intelligent to be lured in by any imagined sheep stealing, believe me, I have dealt with Orthodox trying to pull that nonsense on me. and I am still loyal to the Holy See as an EC. come on John, stay here with us, dude.
Much Love,
Jonn

And your point with this is?

I don't know about "many". But yes. I have the heart of an Eastern Catholic (I think) but I am still technically a Roman Catholic. Why? Because the Eparchy in which I am located requires that I attend a Byzantine parish for THREE years before I can petition for a Canonical Change of Rite.

I am about halfway into that three year wait.

In the meantime I do not represent myself as a Roman Catholic because I have not attended a Roman Catholic Mass in well over a year and I have no intention of ever doing so again (barring a marriage or funeral of a Roman Catholic friend).

But again I ask, so what?

So there are people here who are not Catholic or Orthodox! Gasp! The scandal. I am shocked.

I still fail to see the point you are trying to make here.

The one thing that you make abundantly clear is your dislike for all things and all people Orthodox.

Pity. There is a lot to be learned from everyone who particpates on this board, Orthodox or otherwise. You're closing yourself off to some great information and some amazing minds.

And the only thing I can recall anyone jumping down your throat for (as you put it) was your insistance that Catholics of the Eastern Rites should abandon our liturgical calendar and celebrate the Roman Calendar including Divine Mercy Sunday. A point on which, you were being disagreed with not because your post didn't support the Orthodox view but because your insistance on forcing Eastern Catholics to adhere to a Roman Catholic observation was not in line with the Eastern Catholic view.

Obviously though if you'll be happier on another board - go. Enjoy. But don't try to blame your experiences here on the wonderfully intelligent, knowledgeable and faithful people here. That's just wrong.

Carole

Actually that won�t be necessary. I just received a cable from Central Command in Constantinople. Apparently there was a mix up in some paperwork and it wasn�t Byzcath that was supposed to be hi-jacked but Catholic Answers. Do we ever have some egg on our face!

Anyway, we�re really sorry for the inconvenience this has caused. I hope nobody has been suffering from symptoms such as the desire to grow a really long beard (particularly if you�re female), a strange urge to dress like a Bulgarian peasant, or a compulsion to inspect food labels to verify ingredients. These should clear up soon if you have.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Sincerely,
The staff at Orthodox World Domination Enterprises LLC., Ltd. � (a Delaware Corporation)

Dear Rilian,

I'm pulling your security clearance effective immediately. I should have known not to depend on a contractor to keep secrecy. You talk too much!

Disappointedly,
Andrew,
Director of Orthodox Internet Hijacking Projects,
The Most Severe Central Command

But but ... I just ordered a whole new Bulgarian peasant wardrobe an I've been smearing Rogaine on my face in hopes of starting that beard all while assiduously checking food labels even though I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.

If you stop the project now what will happen to me and others like me???

You can't leave me like this!

Dear John Patrick,

Please remember this is a sharing of thoughts, and we have some very knowledgeable posters who have very strong views on certain theological positions of the Eastern Church.

To come and convert someone to Roman Catholicism or to try to state that Eastern Theology is incorrect, or requires refining will not work. One thing the majority of us have in common is that we base our ideals and beliefs in the fundamental core of Eastern Spirituality, starting with the position of original sin. When you utilize that as your foundation stone, your finished "building" will be different than using a foundation stone of RC original sin. They are both buildings, which is where we share our faith, but they are also made of different materials.

And if the big bad wolf comes and tries to blow down the house that Eastern Theology built, I believe it will stand in the face of that great wind since the foundation is so strong.

Therefore, yes, this is an Eastern orientated forum, with the sharing of many different viewpoints (both western and eastern), but as +St. Theodore says, "the Church is Catholic but the Faith is Orthodox" (my paraphrasing).

I ask that you continue to visit and share your ideas, and also realize that your visiting is in accordance with the wishes of +Blessed John Paul II, as he directed in "Oriental Lumens".

Eastern Catholicism has been the cruel target of both the Roman and Orthodox churches, and as such, you will find great reluctance on the part of many members to modify or accept any additional Latinizations, since many were forced on the people. Granted, many latinizations were voluntarily accepted and adapted by the Eastern Catholics, but this was a direct result of the continuing non-acceptance of the Roman Church, and these wonderful members of the faith community did what they could in order to preserve their most basic core fundamentals.

Like my analogy about the houses above, the Eastern Catholic Church has a core Eastern foundation, but it was only provided throughout history building blocks given by the Roman Church. That is like trying to build with Mega-Blocks and Legos. It just does not work.

Regardless, suffice to say I will pray for you and hope that you are able to continue to learn the True Beauty and Truth that is contained fully within Eastern Theology. The path to attain Theosis is clearly marked (granted, it is also available in the Roman Church but that path is not as clearly visible to me), and the Grace of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ flows strongly within the Eastern Church.

Let us all focus on what we share, in order to be true brothers in Christ.

Peace to you.

In Christ,

Michael

Dear John Patrick,

One of the most difficult things for Roman Catholics to understand about Eastern Catholics is the fact that EC's are spiritually closer (and I believe, identical) to their Orthodox brothers and sisters than to Roman Catholics.

EC's and RC's have the same faith - but in their expression of it they are distinct in EVERY which way. That is not a weakness of the Catholic Church, but its great strength.

We EC's are also struggling, in conjunction with Vatican II and Pope John Paul II et al., to regain what we have lost to Latinization, Latinization that was either imposed on us by RC's or else Latinization that we acquired ourselves in our history.

And in so doing, we oppose every notion that we need to follow Latin Catholic spirituality, theology etc. to somehow "prove" we are Catholics.

One of the respondents on the above forum discussion you cite said that BC's are wary of Orthodox due to bad history between them etc.

That person is correct, but what that person fails to mention, due to ignorance most likely, is the even worse history between EC's and RC's, especially in Eastern Europe.

To give you an indication of this, my family was always EC with several members who were priests and bishops that were sent to Siberia for their loyalty to Rome.

Yet, when I was growing up, my father was always leary of allowing ANY Latin Catholic influences into my spiritual life for fear I would be "Latinized" - which, in his home country, also meant assimilation to a foreign national/cultural identity.

This is why when you talked about "Divine Mercy Sunday" and how it applies to EC's (which is completely wrong and did indeed come across as offensive) and how you even went so far as to say St Therese was a "Byzantine Catholic saint" (which is silly), EC's here reacted quite predictably.

Another thing Roman Catholics fail to understand about EC's is our cultural closeness to the Orthodox.

For example, Ukrainian Catholics share the same culture, language, identity as the Ukrainian Orthodox. This is why our Patriarch Lubomyr and our entire Church is on such good terms with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

In fact, the link the UGCC has with Rome is now the only tangible link with the RC Church there is.

We UGCC'ers, at the same time, feel no need to have anything else to do with the Latin Catholic Church. Your Novus Ordo liturgy, paraliturgical devotions, crisis with your priests et al. - that has nothing to do with us and we could care less, I'm afraid.

We have our own Particular ecclesial life with communion with the Pope - that we have had to struggle with over our own Particular rights and patriarchate etc. In fact, a big part of the reason why UGCC'ers take issue with the papacy in the last thirty years especially is precisely the reason the female respondent in your forum above gives - BECAUSE Rome is so close to the Russian Orthodox Church and is seen as giving the UGCC with her martyrs for loyalty to Rome a second-class citizenship.

Regrettably, Rome has proven to be no good friend of the UGCC, save for the love many of us have for the person of the Pope. That's where it really ends.

As for the "faith," we do not see it in separation from the spiritual expression of it which is entirely Eastern and "Orthodox" in terms of religious culture.

For Roman Catholics today to see "lacks" in Orthodox faith is to betray a profound ignorance of Orthodoxy, its Apostolic foundations and strict adherence to the ancient canons of the Ecumenical Councils - things Rome has overtime taken upon itself to tamper with and "add to" in accordance with its "development of doctrine" perspective.

The separation between Rome and Orthodoxy that exists today is something Rome can change immediately if it but gave up the things it has unilaterally added to the Creed and the papacy, in the first instance, while returning more fully to the Fathers.

RC theologians have also affirmed as much when they speak to Orthodox in ecumenical settings.

The Orthodox have not "hijacked" this Forum, although we have had Roman Catholics who have tried to do so.

John Vernoski is as Catholic as they get, for your information.

His affirmations of the role of the Pope of Rome in the historical and contemporary life of the Eastern Churches are not only scholarly, serious and balanced - they show a keen insight into the entire matter that is often lacking in RC perspectives that, as a matter of fact, often try to downplay the papal role today.

John Vernoski embodies the ideal of someone who is completely Orthodox Catholic and Eastern while being in full communion with the Pope of Rome and acknowledging his univeral authority in matters of faith and morals.

We should all, including many modern RC's I know, try and approximate the spirituality of John Vernoski in this (and other) ways.

John Vernoski has dedicated his life to OLGS Jesus Christ in the worship of the Liturgy of the Easter Church as a Cantor and educator of others in this rich tradition of "lex orandi, lex credendi." It is John Vernoski who has coined the phrase that he repeats at every turn, "communion with the Pope of Rome is the CROWN of Orthodoxy."

I don't hear that from many of your RC theologians today.

Latin Catholics seem to have lost that sense of "right worship, right faith" in their own spiritual lives, I'm afraid. This is why we have so many Latin Catholics who want to become Eastern Catholic - and Orthodox.

The website you have mentioned above bears the postings of many who are simply ignorant of Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Fr. John Hardon, SJ, a great student of other faiths and traditions, always insisted that Catholics devote themselves to the study of the religious traditions of others before they come to comment on them.

I've always noticed that Roman Catholics have much knowledge about Protestantism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc., but are sorely lacking in knowledge about Eastern Catholicism.

And I would venture to say that this is because RC's STILL see us as "Eastern Rites of the Roman Catholic Church."

Any Roman Catholic who understands us this way should at least be open to being educated otherwise.

Or else please do go to the above forum and leave this Forum alone.

It is clear that what the Byzantine Forum, that has the support and esteem of EC and Orthodox, including clergy, is about is beyond their comprehension.

Also, that Orthodox can feel at home with us EC's here is not a "minus" but a "plus" and shows how well the garden of Eastern Christian ecumenism has been watered by John Vernoski.

I say this to you, John Patrick Poland, not in condescending fashion, although that is indeed how I may come across, but as truly someone who himself has failed, on many occasions, to rise to the standard of true Eastern spirituality in communion with Rome established on the Byzantine Forum by John Vernoski.

He has been my mentor and helper on so many occasions, forgiving my indiscretions and instabilities to the breaking point.

That I'm not posting here any longer is simply because I myself have grown too much ashamed of myself and my record here. It is time for me also to just leave and not be a hindrance to the amazing work of Evangelization within the context of Eastern spirituality that goes on in the Byzantine Forum.

Neither of us are worthy of this Forum. We should both just leave it and let it be what it truly is - a great beacon of Light from the East.

Perhaps one day we shall both realize what we have truly missed by not joining more fully with John Vernoski in this ongoing, exciting spiritual endeavour that has truly been inspired in him by the Spirit of Christ!

Christ is Risen!

Truly He is Risen!

Signing off,

Alexander Roman, PhD

I don't know.

I think there might be something to this.

After the responses I got when I posted about my entry into the Carmelite formation program and then an on going PM session I must say there does seem to be a great animosity towards the Latin Church and a greater one to those of us Catholics who might attend a Latin Church rather than a Byzantine one becuase of personal issues and decisions.

An even greater animosity is shown to those of us who have the audacity to follow our vocation into a Latin religious order.

And to compound the issue, its not just at this forum that I have felt this but also at some of our parishes.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice

Dear Alex you posted:

I say:

Shame on you Alex! You know that your contributions have never been a hindrance, but rather a unifying aspect on this forum. Your 'creative' humor and poetic writings have released us from boredom many times... especially your 'teasings' of the administrator...who I, as everyone else respect greatly.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for you John Poland, I say shame on you too! We know you have a great admiration for the Little Flower, who I adore greatly...and I'm Orthodox. Actually I am reading a book about a very saintly Orthodox monk, who is now a bishop in the Church of Cyprus that says exactly the same thing that was stated by Saint Therese...that one should become a 'little child', and so on and so forth.

That her theology is the same, can not be in doubt...for one must realize that in order to obtain 'divinization', the perfection within oneself must also be the same no matter what denomination one belongs to or what 'rite' they follow.

I do hope you will remain with us. If not, then I wish you well.

Zenovia

Alex,

I truly pray that you will cut yourself some slack and realize that this forum is richer for your presence!

Carole

Wow.... This thread even brought Alex out of his hiatus!!

Zenovia,

Father Maximos' message is very similar to St. Therese... never thought of it that way.

-uc

David, do you really feel that it is animosity you are shown or a sense of loss by people who feel the Latins are picking at every turn? It is only in recent years that the Eastern Church even had the thought of a 'return' to their own Tradition, 50 years ago ECs didn't even recognise their Tradition as authentic and something of value because a handful of Latin bishops didn't allow that Tradition to be cherished. I'm not blaming Latins for the past, but we all know Easterners keep memories in centuries not months or years. Do you really think the ECs are upset that you are going to a Latin order or is it that they wish your talents could be used for their Church?

Oops, you mean I've wasted all my time here?

Of course, it doesn't surprise me that we Orthodox in communion with Orthodoxy got the paperwork mixed up. We just started using paper!

Priest Thomas
Spiritual Advisor, OWDE

"2 Live Andrews,"

I have infiltrated your orgnization and have found that not only are you trying to hijack this forum and Catholic Answers but are actually involved in a plot to put an Onion Dome on top of St. Peter's!

Is outrage!



Seriously, you guys crack me up!!!

I'm still laughing!

P.S. See the topic on who's half-Jewish in Hollywood for the "2 Live Andrews" reference.