www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Theology of Sin

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[QB]Dr. John,

You have said that you are very interested in Evangelism if memory serves.


But maybe not in Evangelicals who bring their rigidities with them into Orthodoxy or Catholicism!

Actually , Augustine said "Love God, then do as you will." One problem with this line of thinking, is that the vast majority of us really do not love God, nor do we truly love our neighbor. St. Augustine was referring to those whose love for God is pure. The saints said very, very little about their own love for God, as opposed to how much God had loved them, and how poorly they had responded to that love. They had, more than we do, a good understanding of the weakness and foolishness and capacity for self-deception of fallen human nature. Here is an example:

http://www.orthodox.net/confess/pilgrimc.html

As for this:


????????????????????????? in your best interest ?????????

Won't go there.

Vicki

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: VWilliams ]

Brother Dan posts:

"Dr. John,
You have said that you are very interested in Evangelism if memory serves. Rather than going around and around with your post which I believe will get us nowhere could you tell me based upon your understanding of sin and salvation from what and to what are people being saved?"

It is, in my perspective, unity with the Father/Creator. We derive our being from God's will that we exist. And it is our "bounden duty" as the Anglicans say, to bring ourselves into unity with God. If "God is love; he who abides in love abides in God and God in him", then our ultimate goal is to love God and our neighbors as perfectly as God has loved us. (This is, of course, impossible.) But, recognizing that fact, we still have to do our utmost to love God -- which as the saints have observed -- is difficult since we have never 'seen' God. BUT, with our neighbor, it is a different story. We DO see them, and the usual challenge is to find a way to love them since oftentimes their lives encompass all sorts of stuff (like substance abuse, personality disorders like abuse of spouse, children, etc., and just pure self-centeredness) that we, as Christians find objectionable.

But, the commandment is there, nonetheless. This is, to be sure, 'radical' Christianity, without all the niceties of 'just war', 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps', 'just do it', 'just say no', and the 'quit being so pathetic with your leprosy' that sometimes characterizes militant Christianity that expects everyone to be just so self-disciplined and orderly. That's not the human condition, except in the minds of the 19th century high-church theologians. Life is messy. And we, as the baptized, have to get outside our comfortable neo-Gothic/Byzantine/Georgian edifices and find these folks and be there for them -- not in the 'nice-nice' or "you poor sinner" modality, but in true love and concern. (Mother Teresa comes immediately to mind.)

"I left the humanistic social club atmosphere of Methodism to become part of the Church. I did not leave it so that I would have no guidance whatsoever in my life. If the Church does not offer a message that elevates the soul I might as well stop going. It's much less expensive."

Yikes! I don't have personal interactions with very many Methodists, but my experience has been with wonderful folks who just try to serve God's poor. It's the ham and bean supper crowd, where the funds go to purchase clothing, bed-linens, foodstuffs, and rent-help for those in need. I'm sure, that like our RC brethren, there are those Methodists who philosophize and politicize our faith. I just ignore them and do the "by their works shall you know them" thing. If they're taking care of the poor "in Jesus' name" [as they are fond of saying! Very Protestant!!!], then I don't ask questions about women bishops or whatever. I just help out.

There are those who try to take advantage of this mindset for their own purposes. But they are soon unmasked as the opportunists that they are. And most folks avoid them like the plague. It's the Gospel virtues that are the most relevant.

I feel rather bad that you felt that you were coming to a more "organized" and 'defined' theology community. Indeed, the Catholic and Orthodox communities are more staid in the externals; in reality, however, there is still that ongoing sense of being focused on the baptized sinner and our need to be loving and kind to each and every one. Just as the confession guidelines demand. And the theology teaches.

I think it becomes a question of who has to be 'strict' in regard to sin. While God alone has the power to judge sin, the Church, as the instrument of the Holy Spirit, is mandated to get up off its duff and get out there to preach the Gospel of love to everyone -- no matter his or her sin status.

I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you in the evangelization effort. We have got to be out there among ALL human beings, because Christ told us to preach the Gospel among all nations. We just need to preach the Gospel of love of God and of neighbor, model to them what that means, and after baptizing them -- leave them (with guidance) to move to the Father.

So, "Let's roll!!!" as the military guys say. Or better: "Go get 'em!!!"

Blessings!