www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Need some source info re: liturgical posture

I have an acquaintance who is insisting that the only posture in which it is acceptable to receive the Eucharist is kneeling.

I have tried to point out that the venerable and ancient tradition of the East is standing.

He insists that when "the Orthodox were in communion with Rome" that they received kneeling.

Can someone point me to a source (Orthodox, Catholic, secular I don't care) that shows that the tradition of standing in the East predates the Schism?

Thanks for your assistance.

Carole

Dear Sister in Christ Carole,

Please look at this document from the Catholic Bishops of Connecticut:

http://www.stedward-stafford.org/Diocesan%20Documents/Reception%20of%20Holy%20Communion.rtf

Also, on the Vatican website [vatican.va] under line 1387, it states:

"To prepare for worthy reception of this sacrament, the faithful should observe the fast required in their Church. 218 Bodily demeanor (gestures, clothing) ought to convey the respect, solemnity, and joy of this moment when Christ becomes our guest. ".

I would take it that kneeling/standing would be a gesture and with the comments of the Ct. Bishops, might help you in your current discussion. As discussed on a previous thread, in the East, we Adore Christ with a reverential bow and standing normally, whereas the Western Adoration is customary to involve kneeling as a sign of great respect, admiration, and love.

In Christ,

Michael

Dear Carole,

The Ecumenical Counci of 325 AD forbids kneeling on Sundays and during the Paschal period.

That includes receiving Holy Communion and the East never adopted the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion on other days either.

The fourth century onwards was when Rome listened to the East . . .

Alex

Hi Carole,

I find your friends comments curious, since, if I am not mistaken, Roman Catholics no longer kneel to receive the Holy Eucharist and most communion rails have been removed.

How does he/she receive Holy Communion in modern day Catholic churches?

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

Dear Alex,

Christ is Risen! Truly He is Risen!

Yes, what you write is true. In American Greek Orthodox churches, we have adapted Western practice and we generally kneel during the consecration, but after Pascha, we do not, and we did not for the first Eucharist after the Resurrection on early Sunday morning.

Alice

Dear Alice,

Khrestos Anesti! Alithos Anesti!

How is your "Week of Renewal" coming along?

Up here, Ukrainian Orthodox kneel twice during Sunday Liturgy - this is because they brought this from the Greek-Catholic church with them etc.

I could be wrong (it has been known to happen before! ) but it seems to me that other Orthodox kneel during the Eucharistic Canon as part of a tradition to kneel for the Epiclesis (recalling the practice of kneeling at Pentecost?).

In any event, I'm at peace!

Alex

Originally posted by Alice:
[QB] Hi Carole,

I find your friends comments curious, since, if I am not mistaken, Roman Catholics no longer kneel to receive the Holy Eucharist and most communion rails have been removed.

How does he/she receive Holy Communion in modern day Catholic churches?

Dear Alice,

Carole's friend is probably a Traditionalist Catholic-- they celebrate the Mass of St. Pius X. And they would of course receive Communion kneeling.

In modern mainstream Catholic churches, they receive standing, like we do in the East.

God bless,

Karen

Dear Alex,

You are quite theologically educated so you probably know better than me, as I am definitely not a liturgist (nor anything else praiseworthy for that matter!)

Liturgically speaking, I just go with the flow, and try to learn while I go.

Honestly, I have to admit that I only came to really appreciate our services later in life, since having experienced them mostly in Ecclesiastical Greek for most of my life, I couldn't really grasp their profound spiritual significance.

Fortunately, because of the awesome young priest we have the past six years and his depth of feeling, his use of English, his instruction (even so far as having a teaching Liturgy once a year), and his reviving and explanation of traditional Orthodox praxis, have I started to become more liturgically educated--though I do admit that I have always known much about other religious and spiritual aspects of Orthodoxy.

Perhaps our good priests and resident forum members, Father Thomas (OCA) or Father Anthony (GOA), can accurately answer your question.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

Yes, I thought this might be the case, as I have attended many Roman Catholic Masses throughout my life, and I know that our brethren receive Holy Communion standing up.

In the Risen Christ,
Alice

He is not, to the best of my knowledge, attending a TLM. As near as I can tell he receives the Eucharist in a kneeling posture.

While not the normative posture any longer the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) does allow for reception kneeling by instructing priests that they cannot refuse to admiminister the Sacrament to one who kneels.

It is his argument that kneeling is the properly reverent posture and that it should be returned (along with communion rails) to the status of the normative posture. I'm not postive, but I believe he might feel this should be the normative posture in all Catholic Churches. Again, I'm not sure about that and it is a supposition on my part but it seems to be the way the conversation is leaning.

But the longer the discussion goes on the more confusing it gets. I am no longer sure what he is looking for other than a way to say that reception while standing is not proper. Why he is looking to icons from the East to establish this is beyond me.

I think I'm about to give up on the conversation because I just can't follow what he is trying to ask.

Hmmmm.....

sometimes one wonders WHAT the point another is trying to make, and that is soooo unsettling! He may just be someone who likes to argue or be passionate for argument and passion's sake! :rolleyes:

I think it is safe to say this guy is on a one man crusade. The normal position in the RC to take communion is standing, as it is in the various Byzantine Churches. Yes they have been told not to refuse to communicate anyone who kneels for Communion in the RCs. I think this is his private practice and he is trying to say he is right and the whole Church is wrong. It sounds like an obsession on his part and does not sound healthy.

XB! BB!

ICXC
NIKA

I rather suspect that arguing for the sake of arguing is his ultimate goal.

I think rather than engage him any longer I shall simply pray for him. As I understand it he is going through some very difficult times right now. Perhaps praying for him would be better than feeding his desire for debate.

I agree with Carole. You are wasting your time and by giving him an audience you are encouraging him and his sillyness.

XB! BB!

ICXC
NIKA

This reminds me of the arguments with that guy who used the battleship for his picture.

Yes the Bible says that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend. But how many Catholics genuflect every time the Divine Name is spoken?

Maybe that should be a new devotion. I know St. Ignatius of Loyola suggested to touch one's breast as a sign of devotion when the Divine Name was spoken.

I can't think of the right word, but aren't Eastern Christians supposed to do a sort of partial bending of the knees when receiving Holy Communion. The first few times I went in the Ukrainian Rite, I didn't seem to notice, but then I felt a little guilty.