www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Christians of the world should be ashamed

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

I have permission to post this. I hope that people will really read and contemplate his words.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Christians of the WORLD have lost their dignity and lost the moral courage it takes to defend their holiest places. Defending does not mean sending an army, it means to stand with what is right. It calls for people of conscience.

Israel would like to force the Palestinian Christians out of the Holy land because it is their desire and their ultimate goal to rid the land of all Christians. This will give them the great opportunity to say to the world that the war in Palestine is a war against terrorism and make from our beloved Palestinian Muslims the target of this war.

Yet, most American Christians and the Christians of the West are ignorantly being fed lies that they accept as a God given truth--that Israel's war is simply against Muslim Palestinians. They are ignoring that the problem is the ISRAELI OCCUPATION and it is not a war against terrorism but a resistance against Occupation. And Palestinian resistance are Christians and Muslims.

Palestinian Christians of the Holy Land who have been living in harmony with Muslims for centuries feel abandoned and alone. They feel angry against the Christians in the West and specially the American Christians.

There is little that their Muslim blood brothers and sisters can do to console and defend the Palestinian Christians. Muslims from Qatar and Arab world offered to repair the destruction that the Israelis have done to the Holiest place of Christianity, the Church of the Nativity. The Palestinians are

fighting against the evils and frustrations of Israeli occupation for over 35 years. It is a right, it is not at all a crime.

Arab-Christians in the Middle East angry. This is an indifference based on a certain racism and hatred for the Arabs, regardless of his or her religion. Palestinian Christians are angry at Western Christians who have abandoned them.

Palestinian Christians feel that Western Christians have left them alone to face this brutal Israeli occupation simply because they are Arab Christians. This at least what many Arab-Christians have said to me as their pastor. If we were Italian, English, Irish, Americans, Germans, French would they do the same? Imagine if Jews would besiege Notre Dame of Paris, or the Vatican, or St. Patrick in New York. Or imagine if a group of any people would besiege Jews for days inside any synagogue in the world and deprive them from food, water, electricity and kill them with snipers. Would it be tolerated and accepted, would it take that long to save them and stand with the innocent Jews in a place of prayer? Wouldn't the whole world move to do immediately what is fair, right and just? Why they are doing this to our Arab Palestinians people? Why the West hates us that much? What did we do to deserve all this, what did the Palestinians do to the world? Who are we as Arab-Christians for the Christians of the West? Aren't we the Christians of the first centuries? The Christians who translated the Bible into different languages; the first who have created monachism, and religious orders; the first fathers of the Church; the first missionaries?

At his visit on March 2000 Pope Paul II was proud of the Palestinian Christians and their history and thanked them for what they have given to the world and praised the harmony between Muslims and Christians in the Hoy Land.

How we can as Arab Christians recall with pride these words of the Pope? How we can recall the many other speeches of the Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, pastors preachers of the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant Churches? They seem to many of the Arab Christians as just all these were words to the public opinion.

But when there should be some actions, everybody finds a way to step back and try to think what to do and when to act. What a shame?

There is a kind of acceptance between the people in the West that killing Arabs, Muslims or Christians is a good things for the world. Our people say this and repeat it. And I can understand, as an Arab Catholic priest, their frustration and after months of destruction and massacres by Israel. What the world is waiting for? For a holocaust against Arabs?

The Christian Palestinian population fleeing the Holy Land are saying to me: When Sharon visited the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Muslims from around the world stood proudly to defend their Holy Place and they were so angry that Sharon had to leave immediately in front to the world wide condemnation.

In 1948 20% of Palestinians in the Holy Land were Christian, today, because of the Israeli occupation and its attendant violence, poverty and discrimination that number has dwindled down to 1.8%. Statistics indicate that in a few years the Holy Land will become a Christian museum with no LIVING STONES. And what is the Holy Land without the Palestinian Christians? Without the true and oldest people of the land of Jesus Christ, descendants of the Cananites, Jesbusites, Aramites. These Arab-Christians who have been celebrating Christmas for 2000 years and the Holy week for 2000 years. What is the Holy Land without its rightful people?

Palestinian Christians feel that the Christians of the West lack the courage and morality to stand united with them, Christian Palestinians feel that the utter contempt and disregard that Western Christians have for Christian Palestinians stems from a kind of racism against all Arab peoples.

I am so afraid that Christians of the Holy Land will be forced to abandon the land because they themselves feel so alone, so depressed so unhappy to be called Christians at the same level of the Christian of the West.

I was sent to the United States to serve the Arab-American Christian community by my superior, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Michel Sabbah. I have been a Pastor of the Arab-Americans in California for 10 years. I have witnessed the Arab-Christian community in San Francisco continue to grow with Christian immigrants from Ramallah, Bir-Zeit, Gifna,

Bethlehem , Jerusalem, Taybeh ... coming to San Francisco to flee the ungodly Zionist occupation.
Today there are more Palestinian Christians from Ramallah in San Francisco than in Ramallah itself. What a shame?

Arab-Christians at the end are the losers, they lost their prestige, their future and their hopes. I am very concerned for them, perhaps I am so concerned because I am also an Arab Christian, I cannot rely on the non-Arab world to give a damn about the Palestinian-Christians. I feel so ashamed of the Christians of the World.

Father Labib Kobti

It seems to me that people do not understand one thing:

Those "Christians" in the USA who support Israel, are not Christians at all but heretics devoid of the grace and the true Gospel. "Evangelicals", "Pentecostals", "Baptists" and so on, are infidels whose religion is as alien to us Apostolic Christians as is Islam.

The sectarians represent all what went wrong with Western Christianity in first place. It all started with Luther and his false bible which removed references to Christ (the name of Jesus, Christ, Saviour, etc. was supressed by him in many passages). No wonder why the Fathers used the name "Judaizers" to call those Christians who taught heretical doctrines.

They developped a system which is directly opposed to Christianity (pluralism, rationalism, revolution, absolute equality and feminism, etc) and whose main object was to establish a one-world government with an ecumenical religion and salaried pastors.

The differences between us and the Protestants are indeed enormous, in mentality, attitude, religious tradition, and so on. It's therefore not surprising that they do not care about our brothers in the Middle-East simply because they do not consider us Christians. In fact they send their sectarian embasadors to convert our peoples to their hideous heresies.

So why do we have to consider them Christians? Why do we need their help to start our own cruzade, not against the Muslims (or the Jews in Israel who are also cheated and defrauded by their government) but against the Protestant and Masonic masters in the West.

Someone has successfully sold a bill of goods to many people around the world: the idea that being opposed to Zionism makes one an anti-Jewish bigot.

Step one should be against this deliberate confusion - but be warned: anyone who opposes Zionism can expect to be villified. This is outrageous, but it's true. And if I were to start giving specific examples, the general atmosphere would not be slow to set in.

Incognitus

Are you kidding. There is freedom of religion in Israel, not in the middle eastern countries. If Israel ruled the entire area, the Christians would be far better off under Israeli rule rather than under Muslim rule.

Israel is our friend, Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant.

If there is freedom of religion in Israel, please explain to me why the Christian population is plummeting. I could put you on to some Greek-Catholic priests in Israel who can tell you about "freedom of religion", Zionist-style. They can also show you ruined Churches and ruined Christian villages.

You might like to visit Nazareth - a lovely place - and watch a daily sight: in the morning the Christians climb from the slums up the hill to work as domestic servants in the homes of people who are first-class citizens of the Jewish State (and don't blame me; that's what the World Zionist Organization calls the place), and in the evening you can watch the domestic servants trudging back down the hill to the slums. You see, only the first-class citizens are allowed in the desirable housing. Did I hear someone saying "apartheid"? These Christians are in fact "citizens" of Israel, and even have the vote - which puts them in a small minority, since most Palestinians cannot vote for the Knesset, and most people who can vote for the Knesset are neither Christians nor Muslims. No prize for guessing what religion the majority of the voting citizens are.

Somehow this is not my idea of "freedom of religion".

Incognitus

Dear Fr. Kobti,

Thank you for your courageous posting. Most people in the US simply do not understand the atrocities that have occurred in Israeli-occupied Palestine.

I pray that all peoples may live in peace in Jerusalem, which is meant to be the City of Peace, and in the entire Holy Land!


Dear Jporthodox,

I believe you and Fr. Kobti are not talking about quite the same thing. The freedom of religion in Israel is certainly much better than that in places like Saudi Arabia; even then, however, Israel continues to make it very difficult for the Catholic Church to operate in the Holy Land. This, to me, does not seem to be a very good example of freedom of religion.

Fr. Kobti is not speaking so much about freedom of religion, as he is speaking about the oppression of an entire people. The way the state of Israel has treated the Palestinian people is truly horrendous.

I am not exaggerating. For an example, see http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=489479 , an article published about a year ago in Ha'aretz, an Israeli newspaper. Note the statistics given in the first paragraph: Three Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli killed, and five palestinian children have been killed for every Israeli child killed.

Are there Palestinian terrorists? Absolutely! Any form or terrorism is wrong. But this terrorism is a reaction to a decades-long repressive occupation, and Israel's reaction to the terrorism is far out of proportion to the destruction and death caused by Palestinians. To make myself clear, I do NOT condone Palestinian violence. But I also do NOT condone Israeli systemic violence.

With that, I will stop. I will also not post any more on this topic, for I fear that I may already have contributed to a flame-war. I have done so because I feel morally obligated to support Fr. Kobti, and because God commands us to "Speak out for those who cannot speak, for the rights of all the destitute. Speak out, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy" (Proverbs 31:8-9).

"For the peace of Jerusalem pray: 'May those who love you prosper! May peace be within your ramparts, prosperity within your towers.'" (Psalm 122:6-7.)

"Peace upon Israel!" (Psalm 125:5b.) And peace upon all who live in Israel, be they Israeli or Palestinian!


Yours in the Peace of Christ,
Alex NvV

Here is some of my imput on the situation in Israel based upon living in the Sinai and spending a significant portion of my time in Southern Israel/West Bank area. The Palestinian Christians and Muslims are broken down, dejected. I went over to Sinai in late 2002 with a very pro-Israeli view of the area. A year later when I left, I saw their oppressiveness to any non-Hebrew types living in Israel. I cannot buy for a second any position that asserts the opposite. Read the papers from about a year and a half ago and see Pope John Paul II getting into Israel's tail about kicking out women and men religious for no good reason. It is the Israelis who are the oppressors over there. There is little to no tolerance. I was quite pleased to hear from religious of the Armenian, Byzantine, Latin, Alexandrian, and Syriac traditions that all were slowly coming together to worship from time to time as brothers and sisters in Christ. True, there are gaping holes in our Church's relations, but even in Old Jerusalem the Christians huddle together as they all know well that the Israelis are only looking out for #1.

On that note, I don't think the American/Western Christians are necessarily on the up and up of the Holy Land and should not be blamed en masse.

Cyril,

Discerning a vocation to the Holy Land Franciscans and eager to get back to the West Bank

As a side note, we let similar injustices happen to the Copts in Egypt by their forced conversions to Islam and total denial of their Christians living there as having much of any say in government. The few reps that are Christian are not much more than the "token" Christian to show the world that they are a tolerant nation.

There is something about the Arabs situation that saddens me regardless of creed.

Cyril,

Desiring to visit Papa Cyril's Cathedral again some day

Dear Yuhannon you said:

"Palestinian Christians of the Holy Land who have been living in harmony with Muslims for centuries feel abandoned and alone. They feel angry against the Christians in the West and specially the American Christians. "

I say:

There have been many 'pogroms' against the Christians by Muslims throughout the centuries. If these pogroms had not happened in history, that whole area of the world would be predominantly Christian.

Just recently 16 Christian homes were destroyed in a predominantly Christian town in a Palestinian area. It was alleged that a Christian man had made a Muslim girl pregnant. The girl was killed by her family, and 300 Muslim men burned down the homes of all of his relatives.

Of course the Palestinian police blamed the Israelis for delaying them from entering the area sooner, yet isn't it 'odd' that the authorities let them all go free. They were happy that no one was killed...of course the girls life meant nothing.

You said:

"There is little that their Muslim blood brothers and sisters can do to console and defend the Palestinian Christians. Muslims from Qatar and Arab world offered to repair the destruction that the Israelis have done to the Holiest place of Christianity, the Church of the Nativity. "

I say:

It was not the Israelis that destroyed the inside of the Church of the Nativity, but rather the Palestinians inside the church that were desecrating the church by urinating on the altar, etc. I think you should read up on it. The Israelis never went inside, nor did they do anything to it. You know Yuhannon, I have a long memory. I remember it very well. But then again, isn't it always the 'Israelis' that are to blame?

You know just yesterday one of the terrorist groups said that they will start killing the Christians. Now don't tell me it is the Israelis doing it again? But then again it seems to me that the Christians are so fearful of the Palestinians that they are bending over backward to appease them.

You know appeasment can only go so far. We learned that when Neville Chamberlain appeased Adolph Hitler and said there will be peace in his life time, the next day Hitler attacked Czechslokovakia.

You said:

"Yet, most American Christians and the Christians of the West are ignorantly being fed lies that they accept as a God given truth--that Israel's war is simply against Muslim Palestinians. They are ignoring that the problem is the ISRAELI OCCUPATION and it is not a war against terrorism but a resistance against Occupation. And Palestinian resistance are Christians and Muslims."

I say:

You know every nation in the world has it's territory occupied by some other nation, (or people). The difference is though that when land becomes occupied, the people are accepted as refugees in some other place.

As an example: When the pogroms occurred against the Greek majority in Istanbul by the Muslim Turks in the 1950's and 60's, the people had to leave pennyless and were taken in by Greece.

Also when the Europeans were kicked out of Egypt by Nassar, they all left for their place of origin...except for the Greeks. They had to leave their their homeland, because the city was established by Alexander the Great, and it was always Greek. Yet even though those people were forced to leave pennyless,they too were accepted by Greece, and have now become established.

Now Yuhannon, couldn't the Greeks say that their lands in Turkey and Egypt are 'occupied'.

So don't give me this story about the Arabs having any concern for the Christians. How can they, when they have no concern for their own compatriots the Muslim Palestinians, and would not allow them to establish themselves in the countries of their Arab brethren. Instead they sent them back to Palestine to live in refugee camps.

Why? Because Islam is a expansionist political/ religious system with a belief that any land once Muslim, must remain Muslim and whatever the people suffer by remaining there is considered their 'fate'.

You said:

"Palestinian Christians feel that Western Christians have left them alone to face this brutal Israeli occupation simply because they are Arab Christians."

I say:

It is not the brutal Israelis but rather the Palestinian terrorists that are disturbing the peace in that part of the world. The Christians are in a spot...that I concede. If they support the Israelis they will be killed as traitors. If on the other hand they support the Palestinians, they will only be ostracized by the Israelis.

Well between the two, it seems that supporting the Palestinians is the safer choice. That way they will at least live...and merely suffer the consequences of an indifferent Israel.

You said:

" to our Arab Palestinians people? Why the West hates us that much? What did we do to deserve all this, what did the Palestinians do to the world? Who are we as Arab-Christians for the Christians of the West? Aren't we the Christians of the first centuries? The Christians who translated the Bible into different languages; the first who have created monachism, and religious orders; the first fathers of the Church;"

I say:

What is the alternative? Should we allow the destruction of the Israeli state and appease the terrorists? Stop blaming the Israelis for the sufferings you are experienceing in a Muslim world. Are they doing any different than they are doing in Kosovo? In Africa? In the Phillipines? Aren't the Muslims terrorizing and burning down all the monasteries and churches?

You said:

"Arab-Christians at the end are the losers, they lost their prestige, their future and their hopes."

I say:

The Christian prestige, future and hope in that part of the world, has been lost from the time of the Arab, Mongolian and Ottoman conquests...all Muslims; The heresy of Mohammed.

But all is not lost. While the Arab Christians are being forced to leave Israel because of the continuous terrorism, Christianity is growing in Israel through the immigration of people from Russia. It seems many Christians moved there, and churches are rising up.

I recalled when I was there, I went to visit a site in Haifa, and in order to get to it we had to go through a church. Well the church turned out to be a Roumanian Orthodox one, and a liturgy was in progress.

Zenovia

To All:

At one time I was horrified at the retaliations of the Israelis on the Palestinians. I'm not any more. Remember, each terrorist act that is committed against Israel, is in percentage the equivalent of what happened to us on 911.

But what most people don't seem to realize is that when Al Jazeera had and might still have, it's camera's focusing for minutes on end on the bodies and casulties of those killed by Israelis, it is doing so with the intent of manipulating our feelings.

Now can you imagine if after a terrorist attack, the Israelis were to have their cameras showing us close ups of the people maimed and killed for minutes on end?

Also, when the town in the West Bank, (I forget the name) was recently attacked by 300 Palestinian Muslims, why wasn't it in the American press? I read the article by a Christian living there, who said that she had to spend hours convincing the mob not to destroy her husbands business.

Now this person, has been continuously writing anti-Israeli propaganda, and was truly in a state of shock. She couldn't believe that these people that she loved so well, and supported so much could actually be capable of such attrocities
...especially the indifference of the authorities to the killing of a pregnant girl that 'dishonered' her family.

Zenovia

Shlomo Zenovia,

Please re-read my post. None of it was written by me, it was written by a Priest of the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem who is the Patriarchal Visitor to the Palestinian Arab Community in the United States.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Incgnitus,

Offer some solutions. Don't just slur people.

CDL

Solution? OK:

A secular Palestine (yes, ALL of Palestine), where all citizens of whatever religion (or no religion) have equal rights before the law, and where the places which are sacred to certain religions are protected by law (this probably involves international status for Jerusalem). The right of return for all refugees who originally lived in Palestine and their direct descendants.

Arabic, English and Hebrew to have equal and official standing.

The availability of civil marriage for those who want it, or who cannot have religious marriage for any reason (without this, people are forced to fly to Cyprus to get married, and the present government does not recognize the validity of such marriages).

If you don't like those ideas, you also won't appreciate being informed that "slur" is a noun, not a verb.

Incognitus

Didn't you ever slur your speach? Well, I think you'd better learn the language a bit better before you accuse.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Slur

Be that as it may, I think your ideas have some merit. If you can find a way to protect the Jews from the Wahabbists, and other Muslims who think the Jews are all vermin deserving of extermination and if you can find a way to protect them better than they were protected by the Nazis then your solution holds some merit.

Are you willing to stake your life on the ability of the Jews to protect themselves when they have no more weapons?

I don't think history bears out you optimism.

CDL

There was one, I think Melkite, talked about in the book the Body and Blood. I think it was being used as a stable because the congregation had been driven out at one point and were not allowed to get it back. I can't recall the name of the village though.

Andrew