www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Who are these guys?

http://members.tripod.com/~Mark1x1/index.html Anyone know?

Are they really Byzantine Catholic?

Thanks

The comic relief, apparently. Please forgive me if i don't make over any real estate to them any time soon.

Gaudior, who needed the chuckle

drewmeister2,

I just read the website you listed. They are calling themselves Byzantine Catholic, however, that does not mean they are under the jurisdiction of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

It sounds to me like they are an independent splinter group--a kind of mixed bag.

I am including here a short history of their founding from the website you posted above. And here is the URL again if anyone wants to check it if only to see the incongruency therein. :p

http://members.tripod.com/~Mark1x1/index.html
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[Quoted from the article above] I am highlighting significant words in bold.
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"Archbishop Walter Myron Propheta, OSB was one of the great leaders in the Independent /Autocephalous movement of catholic faith communities. The legacy he left after his death in the 1970's is one of service, of faith and belief, of devotion and of upholding the truths of Orthodoxy and the authenticity of true Catholicism. The American Orthodox Catholic Church under the leadership of Propheta took shape in 1962 after he left the Ukrainian Orthodox Church He sought to build a community of faith to serve the people of America while remaining true to his ethnic Orthodox heritage. The AOCC became incorporated in the State of New York in 1965. After incorporation the Church grew and flourished, reaching too many countries. Upon Archbishop Propheta's death, as Bishops and Priests he and his assistant Bishops either consecrated or ordained others that went their own ways :rolleyes: or they died, the AOCC gradually slipped into a state of dormancy .
Our current Patriarch, Mar +Markus I being one of the last living active clergymen, of the Prophetas succession, set forth and incorporated this jurisdiction herein.
The Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc. ( Independent Jurisdiction) in 1964, under a different name, which was changed in 1974 to the name it has now, and is not part of any other jurisdiction. [see that name below]

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Note the last sentence, "is not part of any other jurisdiction."

The present name seems to be The Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc. (Independent Jurisdiction) Not Roman Catholic

Someone else here might be more in the know about these splinter groups than I. These are just my conclusions based on what is in the article you posted. Sure looks like a splintered group not under the authority of the present Byzantine Catholic Church.

All of the above is just in case someone really wants to know. They keep saying they are not Roman Catholic and they also say in their article that they include both western and eastern rites. Ummmmm???? :rolleyes:

Porter

The Byzantine Catholic Church,Inc (Independent Jurisdiction) NOT Roman Catholic is just one of the several hundred vagant groups of doubtful origin who are neither Orthodox nor Catholic and often lead people to confussion (fortunately, most of them only exist on the cyberspace).

Most of these sects trace their origins in the so-called lineages of Jean Villatte, Arnold Harris Matthew and Carmel Henry Carfora who got their orders ilegaly from the Utrecht Old Catholic sect; Aftimios Ofiesh who had left the Orthodox Church; Archbishop Thuc and company and the Brazilian secularists (Duarte Costa et al).

No one knows how many "bishops" and "priests" came from them and their successors. From a western point of view their orders are doubtful and the Roman Catholic Church in fact views them as invalid. Not to mention the none of these sects possess the grace, as many of their so-called bishops were married, defrocked, lacked propper training, and come from schism after schism.

This outfit is one of the more bizarre of the Independent Catholic/Orthodox movement. Neal [or is it Neil? I can never remember]-"Irish Melkite" is his screen name, and a fine Celt he is- probably has a better handle on them. About a year ago we had a woman, a nun of sorts, posting who insisted that she was part of the Byzantine Catholic Church because of her connection with "Patriarch Mar Markus", ie, "the Holy Father". When called on it she got all persecuted and went off in a huff, one of a series of odd posters we have seen...
In short, they are of dubious heritage and are certainly NOT Byzantine Catholics.
Heck, they probably aren't even Slavs or Arabs...{"Miller"?; sounds like Ohio Amish]
-Daniel

Best thing to do is pay them no attention whatever. Walter Propheta managed to give rise to any number of pseudo-churches (one of which was called, of all things, "The Byzanto-Pentecostalist Baptist Church"), almost none of which had any substantial existence. He had somehow gained possession of a redundant Ukrainian Orthodox church building in the Bronx. He's been dead for decades, but every so often someone turns up invoking his name. Ignore them.


Incognitus

Hello.

Sects like this have something to do with the canonical conflict of the Orthodox Church in the USA at the beggining of the XXth Century.

The Church of Russia, as the first Church with missions on this continent, believed to have jurisdiction over the continent. Since many new inmigrants were Arabs, Moscow gave one of their own, Bp. Aftimios Ofiesh, a prominent place as head of the Syrian mission of the Russian Church. This was respected, in spite of the divisive activities of the Antiochian Patriarch which wanted them to come under his jurisdiction.

As a result of the Russian Revolution, Patriarch Tykhon issued a decree allowing bishops outside Russia to form synods, so an "American Orthodox Church" with Russian and Ruthenian parishes, a Syrian Mission, two bishops and even a "Western Rite" section was formed with Aftimios as the main leader.

In spite of having inicial support from the Russian Church, the American Church was caught between the autocephalist pretentions of its leadership and the divisive actions of the Antiochian and Phanar Patriarchates. Finaly in 1932, in order to prevent the Communists from taking control of parishes in America, the Russians ordered Aftimios to transfer the Syrian Mission to the Antiochian Patriarch.

In a desperate attempt to keep the American Church alive, Aftimios consecrated William Albert Nichols (a former Episcopalian minister) as "Western Rite" Archbishop, who in turn consecrated more and more bishops (most of them married and coming from the most incredible backgrounds), all destined to become "episcopi vagantes".

(With one exception: Turner who was received as a Mitred Archpriest and founder of the Western Rite Vicariate by the Antiochian Orthodox Church)

Mar Markus comes from one of the sects created by the desintegration of the American Church.

Dear Daniel,

Well if they're not even Slavs . . . obviously not the real "McCoy!"

Alex

Daniel,

There are those that may not be Slav, Arabic, Greek, etc. in background, but maybe a convert. I am one of of those such creatures . But to agree with most posting on this thread, these people have nothing to do with either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, but rather seem to be playing "church".

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Friends,

These groups are also interesting in terms of who they canonize as saints . . .

In 1985, a group canonized Theophane Noli and Aftimios Olfiesh as saints.

Another group canonized Rene Villatte who ordained a great many priests etc. and many of them are still around.

A Celtic group canonized John Scotus (of the ninth century, not Bl. John Duns Scotus) and also "St Morgan of Wales." This is none other than . . . Pelagius himself!

I once came across yet another group that canonized Martin Luther King Jr., Dorothy Day and Oscar Romero.

Another group has canonized the Franciscan priest killed in 9/11.

Alex

Father, bless. I was speaking tongue in cheek; I myself am English, Scots, and Ulster Irish, with nary a drop of Slav, Arabic, etc.
I believe that Bishop Aftimios ended up marrying a young Syrian girl...

I vaguely think that Walter Propheta's father had been a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic priest. But no such surname appears in Blazheiovsky. Propheta himself (the son) claimed to have had some sort of connection with Bishop Zhuk, but at the time that Propheta said this, Bishop Zhuk had been conveniently dead for decades.

Incognitus

I believe that Propheta was at one time a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Constantineople ,which was headed by Bishop Bohdan(Szpilka), who succeded Bishop Joseph Zhuk.For a while,there was a second Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Constantineople known as the "Holy Autocephalic Ukrainan Orthodox Church in Exile" heade by Archbishops Palladyj and Ihor.Unlike the group headed by Bishop Bohdan, this jurisdiction was made up almost entirely of Eastern Ukrainians, rather than ex-Greek Catholics.This latter group after the deaths of the two Archbishops died out, though a vagante group using the same name is still out there.

As General MacArthur might have said "old jurisdictions never die - they just fade away".

Incognitus

I have nothing to say but
"Only in New York"