www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Would the Jews have been more secure someplace else?

Fr. Serge,

You have stated what most people know. It doesn't really address the question except to put the blame mostly upon the West. This may be true.

CDL

This reminds me very much of the plight of Native Americans. They were hunted down, rounded up, and shuttled into lands that were not traditionally their own. Treaties were broken while others were forced to be entered into. It went all the way to the Supreme Court and the Native Americans won their case, yet they had no recourse when their victory was not enforced. At first, they had all of Texas. Then Texas became something desirable so they were shuttled north to Oklahoma. Plains and mountain tribes, friends and enemies, sedentary or nomadic, they were crammed in together. All of this because our country thought it had the blessings of God behind it becoming a super-power and a God-given duty to overcome the indigenous people.

I am of the impression that it isn't because the people were Native American that they were (and are) subjected to this treatment. It was the stubborn, selfish, egotistical mindset of the Europeans who were taking over the US which drove this movement and the Native Americans were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and got the short end of the stick.

Likewise, I am of the impression that the Jewish people (as an ancestral/geographic description and not a religious one) are suffering the same fate at this point in time. I don't think it has anything to do with who they are, but with the mindset of the people who are trying to take their land. If it had been anyone else there they most likely would have suffered the same fate.

It doesn't make it right, or mean we should sit by and watch it happen. But I have no sentimental desire to help because they are Jewish (the people of the Old Testament) nor do I think that they are suffering because of some Biblical/religious prophecy. Like the Native Americans, they are at a place in their history (like almost any other geographic region experienced at one point in time) in which they are being invaded. I believe we have a responsibility to help them just like we do all the other peoples of the world who are suffering at the hands of oppressors. There are many around the world (China, the Balkans, Tibet, and so on) who are facing the same (and worse) trials. Israel, as we can see, more than has the ability to defend itself. Why aren't we (as a nation) coming to the aid of the many people around the world who are being tortured and killed for their religion who are not able to defend themselves?

So, to answer your question, yes. I do believe they would have been more secure some other place. Not in any place they have ancestral groundings, unfortunately, as those areas are currently in upheaval. Arkansas might be a good idea now, but that is only because it experienced its "Manifest Destiny" a couple hundred years ago. It isn't the place that is the problem, but the time in history and the mindset of those surrounding them.

I suppose it would be expensive to relocate all the citizens of the Jewish State who wanted a secure homeland to some other place.

But it would probably cost less to keep them in 5 star resort hotels of their choice for the rest of their lives, than it costs to annually subsidize the Jewish State, arm the Jewish State at American taxpayer's expense, and to fight the so-called "terrorists" who who are fighting to regain their ancestral homes and property.

At the time the Zionist movement started, Israel was not the only place that was being considered. What happened, or so I believe, is that the Jews never fully became a part of the European nations they were living in. Their affinity was always towards their brothers living within other borders. Because of that they became a threat...especially in a time of war. It is not a coincidence that two of the top spies in WW I, (Mata Hari and O'Reilly), were Jews.

Since their experiences have always been one of persecution, they have formed their own ideologies for self preservation. Unfortunately, these ideologies have been their greatist downfall.

Having suffered in European nation states, they embraced communism. Most Communists were Jews, although not all Jews were Communists. This can be affirmed by the fact that when the Nazi's would capture Russians during WW II, they would automatically kill the Commissar, assuming or knowing he was a Jew. It was the attacks on the Czars by the Communists and other parties of the 'intelligencia' that caused their persecution in Russia. These were some of the first Jews that began to immigrate to Palestine. They took literally the expression, 'Next year in Jerusalem'.

Nazism and Fascism in Europe came about as a reaction towards communism, so we could say that the Jews were indirectly one of the causes. That the Jews 'intentionally' caused wars is not correct, but that they might have been indirectly the cause of some wars, could be true....at least in modern times and in Europe.

Ironically, the only nation that they probably felt a part of was Germany. They had become very successful there, and began to intermarry readily. That is why Hitler began to trace the German lineage back three generations. Actually, the German Jews had acquired the same racist attitudes towards their Eastern brethren as the Germans had. They were shocked to find that they were perceived as being the same as other Jews by the Germans.

During WW I, the Zionists were active...or we could say, the English were active. Either way, Palestine was promised to the Jews by the English and leaflets were dropped from planes telling the Jewish soldiers in the German army not to fight for Germany because England was their friend. England was going to give them Palestine. So we can now imagine the chagrin in Germany when they lost the war. Also when seeing the prosperity of the Jews, and their own situation during the depression. Especially considering that they were also being forced by France to make amends. The Germans truly believed that they had been stabbed in the back by their own German Jews.

Well we know the outcome of all that, but we also have to consider the Palestinian people. It was not the Jews that they were prejudiced against, but rather the European Jews. They were culturally alien in every way.

Well we can say the Jews were the root cause of all the problems in the Middle East, and maybe they lack diplomacy...never having a country where it could be used. Their situation in life has always been to manipulate the leaders of other nations in order to survive.

Well maybe had they paid the Palestinians for the land that they had taken away, today the situation would be different...but the Jews never pay those that are their enemy. They feel that since they were kicked out of the other countries in the Middle East, and had their money and land confiscated, why should they pay the Palestinians for what they themselves took away.

It doesn't matter though, I do believe that the day would have come when the Muslims would want to rebuild their former empires...be it a Sunni or Shia Caliphate, or the Turkish Ottoman one. Zawahiri, Al Quida's second in command, (or so I believe that's his name), in his last video said that they will retake their lands from Iraq to Spain. That part of the video was only mentioned on CNN once.

Zenovia

I suspect we could never agree on this. I see what's left of the Jewish religion the same way I see the Mayan and other South American religions. The temples are gone, the priests are gone, and the political structures that surrounded them are also gone. Oh sure, something remained, but it is different from what was there before. The same with Judaism. The very heart was ripped out of the religion in 70 AD and it has never been the same since. They do have a collection of texts that we also honor. But Jewish worship is radically different from what is was before the Romans did a number on it. However, if you believe the end-timers and their prophecies, the temple will be rebuilt and the Anti-Christ will come.

Here's my take on it. I think that the Temple will be rebuilt and a Messianic figure will institute sacrifice there. But I think all who are awaiting a Messianic figure to institute the worship at the new Temple will be deceived. I think that the Anti-Christ will use the new Temple to deceive a vast multitude.

Remember Julian the Apostate?

[I]Here's my take on it. I think that the Temple will be rebuilt and a Messianic figure will institute sacrifice there. But I think all who are awaiting a Messianic figure to institute the worship at the new Temple will be deceived. I think that the Anti-Christ will use the new Temple to deceive a vast multitude.[/B/I] [Frown]

Remember Julian the Apostate? [B]Remember Julain the Apostate?

Vividly. And he was lousy at pinochle, too. Very bad breath.

Somehow I wonder "What did they expect?"

They live in a tiny strip of land that's smaller than New Jersey. In perspective, the Arab countries that surround Israel are about the size of the eastern half of the US east of the Mississippi. Could you imagine if the eastern half of America hated New Jersey and wanted it blown off the map into the Atlantic?

Maybe they should have chosen a safer place like NYC or San Francisco or Hollywood where there are already strong Jewish communities that would have welcomed them.

I don't get it?

You mean it doesn't? I do remember Julian the Apostate, but I don't know about his gaming skills. Seems to me that some saints have predicted the temple will be rebuilt and the Anti-Christ will take over. Did St. Jerome say something about that? I think I read taht somewhere, but am not sure.

Dear Byzantn,

I read somewhere, sometime that St. Jerome said that the continuing existance of the Jews after all they have sufferred, is proof of the Christian faith. I find this strange though, since he lived about 370 AD. That would have been only 300 years after the destruction of Israel.

Zenovia

Here's a link to a very interesting website belonging to the ultra orthodox Jewish sect the Neturei Karta http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/index.cfm The Neturei Karta are vehemently opposed to the modern state of Israel because they believe the State will only be created at the coming of the Messiah.

Staros are older 'n dirt!! That's what it means. Played pinochle with Julian.

Eli

The British Government did toy with the idea of the Kimberley region in the north of Western Australia as a Jewish homeland and the Soviets did set one up on the Manchurian border. I think even a place in east Africa was also toyed with but in the end Palastine it was.

The sad thing is that there was a need to create a nation for the Jews to go to...no one should have to move across the continent to escape predjudice or persecution.