www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Devil's Advocate for John Paul's Cause

Dear Friends,

Some here have said that others are being somewhat presumptuous in declaring Pope John Paul II a saint ahead of the Church.

So I propose we set up our own "Devil's Advocate" in this respect.

Anyone can take on that role.

What would you say would go against the canonization of Pope John Paul II or else slow it down?

Hmmm?

Alex

He was a great and personally holy man, but a poor administrator who refused his duty to discipline his children.

No father, seeing his 3 year old putting a butter knife in an electrical outlet, could fail to act to both preserve the life of the child and discipline him such that he would never again try something so dangerous to his temporal well-being.

The post-conciliar Church was just like that 3 year old, very much in need being taken to the wood shed, and throwing a 3 year old's temper tantrum any time any hint of remonstrance came from Rome.

I loved Pope John Paul II.

But he was not always a good "father" to wayward members of his flock. And those of us raised post-Vatican II have paid a high price for his misfeasance in this one regard.

the office of "Devil's Advocate" has been done away with. The reasoning that, if miracles are attributed to the Servant of God, then they are indeed in heaven.

Every Saint had some fault. Pope Blessed John XIII smoked, and St. Pius X took snuff. St. Pio drank 1 glass of beer a day, and so on. So what?

We will leave the "Devil's Advocate" job to God.
He is the ultimate Judge.

So no reasoned, level-headed and non-partisan discussion of the legacy of JPII is to be permitted?

Please clarify.

Are you comparing the post-conciliar disarray, rampant liturgical abuses and the homosexual abuse scandals that continued unabated under Pope JPII ... to smoking, drinking, or snuff use?

"Unabated"? Really? On the contrary, I think the late great Pope managed to abate quite a few of the worst liturgical abuses. And ever hear of a little document called "Ecclesia Dei"?

And the homosexual/child abuse scandals did not continue "unabated" either. Granted, EVERYONE in the hierarchy must accept at least part of the blame, but do you really think these abuses are continuing "unabated" today, with all the new rules in place forbidding priests to be alone with a child, even in the confessional?

Finally, the fact that more and more of the young priests entering seminaries today consider themselves "John Paul priests" bodes well for the future, on both counts.

I will agree that JPII did not do a great job of managing the Church. But, look at the act he had to follow - Paul VI - whom I believe to be one of the most bumbling and ineffective Popes in history. Strangely enough, I think Paul VI was also a holy man, but so inept he caused an immense loss of faith. Given what JPII inherited, he had a nearly impossible task on his hands. I think he chose his battles, but unfortunately, that sometimes meant letting things go that needed his attention.

I have the utmost respect and admiration for the late Pope John Paul II.

However, I think historians will look back at his papacy with a negative light. He is one of the very few popes to have a schism occur during his papacy. Some historians will say he didn't do enough to prevent the SSPX schism.

How many internal Latin Church schisms have occured in the last 500 years? Three maybe?

1: Society of St. Pius X
2: Polish National Catholic Church
3: Protestant Reformation

And one of these schisms occured during the papacy of Pope John Paul II.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

Granted, but what exactly do you think the Pope could have done to stop this schism, which he didn't try? And do you really put the SSPX schism in the same category as the Great Schism between East and West? After all, Cardinal Lefebvre chose to disobey a direct order from the Pope - how is the Pope responsible for that?

Whether one likes or dislikes the Pauline Mass is a matter of personal preference, but one only has to read the new GIRM issued during JPII's pontificate in 2002/2003? to see the rubrics and all well defined in an attempt to put an end to liturgical abuse and license.

Quite a while back John Paul also personally ordained then Pittsburgh priest Donald Wuerl and shipped him off to Seattle as an auxiliary bishop to try to get a handle on a diocese that was spinning out of control, much to the dismay of many who thought this was taking things a bit too far and stepping on toes.

The Catechism, quite an undertaking, was also issued during his pontificate.....

Just my 2 cents.

Bill

Joe:

Don't you think it is unfair to attribute the SSPX schism to Pope John Paul II?

He was elected Pope in 1978, or more than 8 years AFTER the formal organization of the SSPX! In fact, the seminal ideas for the formation of such a society date back to the 1920s under Fr. Le Floch, the "tutor" to Archbishop Lefebvre.

Amado

(Archbishop Lefebvre was not created a Cardinal.)

I'll concur with everything Doc Brian stated, and add that I found Pope John Paul II's overtures toward non-Christian religions disturbing.

I think one thing many forget today - if they are old enough to remember it in the first place - is that when John XXIII used the term "ecumenism," he was talking about the Orthodox. Not protestants, not other religions, but improving relations between Catholics and the Orthodox.

I think it is fair to say that John Paul II was an extraordinary evangelist but not an administrator.

His writings - many of which I have yet to read - were prolific and spiritual.

Living the life he led as a young man certianly had an effect on his ability, or lack thereof, to "lay down the law" with recalcitrant bishops.

However, let us not forget JPII's stern warning to the priest in Nicaragua who was part of the Marxist Sandinista government. Also, he battled the Maryknoll Order and the Jesuits who espoused the awful "liberation theology".

JPII preached the Gospel tirelessly until the end of his life. If the bishops - and their flocks - chose not to listen to JPII, it is their fault and their loss.

Fault JPII for not being a great administrator.
Fault JPII for being too cordial with other faiths, especially non-Christian faiths.
Fault JPII for not being more forceful with the ROC and not naming Patriarch Lubomyr Husar a Patriarch and for listening to Walter Kaspar.

If there are the worst of his sins, then I'll be lucky to spend eternity having my soul purified of sin.

(No discussion of Purgatory here!)

Amen. Amen, Amen!

Ungcsertezs