www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Regarding this Forum

To Whom It May Concern,

After a discussion this weekend with a friend and some reflection on my part about the current situation here at the forum, I have to say the following.

I am greatly appalled with the treatment that certain Orthodox persons received here. This treatment has caused a few of them to greatly limit their input, Brendan for example, and in at least one case caused them to leave all together, Serge.

All of this was precipitated by the influx of a new batch of Latin Catholics to this forum.

After watching this, I fear that there will never be a reunion between the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches. If we can not get along in this micro-world, how can we expect our Churches to get along in the macro-world?

Another thing I see that has been bothering me here is this, when certain Latin Catholics appeared and made claims that the Latin Church is superior and the Byzantine Faith is inferior, they were put in their place quickly. But when certain Latin Catholics come here and question the loyalty and faith of us Byzantine Catholics, they are entertained with answers. This question is just a new way to say that the Latin Church is superior as they never have to answer this question.

A Byzantine Catholic is no less a Catholic than a Latin Catholic. It doesn't matter what others think, we are Catholic, not Orthodox. We may have many things in common with the Orthodox, but at heart, by being in communion with the Holy Father, we are not Orthodox, we are orthodox and there is a difference.

I am writing this to let all of you know my sadness in what has been occurring here at the forum. I do think it was a step in the right direction to add the new group of moderators, but I am afraid that it was too late in occurring to save some of what the forum was.

I am also letting all of you know that I will be cutting back on my contributions here, as many of those whose opinions I value have decided it best not to post here any longer.

Your brother in Christ,
David

>>>All of this was precipitated by the influx of a new batch of Latin Catholics to this forum.<<<

Even though I don't post here alot, I do "lurk" quite a bit. I think Serge would disagree that Latin Catholics are the reason he left.

Columcille

David,

I was going to respond to your post and instead managed to delete your entire profile! If you would be kind enough to re-register I will restore the information to your old member number and profile.

Thanks!
Administrator

Dear David,

I certainly can't speak for Brendan or Reader Sergius, as I don't think it would be fair of me to speak for two individuals whom I highly admire and who I know are more than capable of defending themselves and articulating their own positions.

(They can wipe the floor with me, what can I say ).

My own positions are very closely aligned with those of Brendan and "all you Orthodox Christians."

As you know, I like to consider myself to be among the first to come out "swinging" in defence of Orthodoxy, Rome's "initiatives" into Russia, against the "Cardinal Error" etc.

And while I don't speak for Orthodoxy, as I cannot, I think it is incumbent upon us to stick up for our Mother Church.

But being a Latinized Ukrainian Catholic , I understand where our Latin Catholic brothers are coming from.

It isn't their fault really that some of them know so little about the East. The fact is - that is why they are here, to find out about us.

And they bring with them their Latin Catholic upbringing, most of which I shared as well.

I admire our Latin Catholic friends for their defence of the Catholic Church as such. I admire them for their traditional stance.

For a number of them, the idea of an alternative theology or ecclesiology that is just as valid as their own (that many probably have thought of as the only valid one until now) is a novelty and a shock.

I think that if Brendan were offended, he would say so. He has told me when I offended him and I apologised to him. The same with Reader Sergius.

But I think they too understand where our Latin Catholic friends are coming from and they roll with the punches.

I have also come across Latin Catholics who came to this Forum completely ignorant of the Eastern Church, again not of their own fault, but who have, in a short time, developed a savvy and keen insight into the Eastern Churches.

I know this because I've worked with several of them (who will remain anonymous) who have converted to either the Eastern Catholic Churches or else to Orthodoxy.

Other Latin Catholics, such as my personal teacher, Angela of Glasgow, grow in their knowledge and appreciation of the Eastern Churches by leaps and bounds, as Cantor Joe Thur can also attest.

Angela now keeps me from being Latinized!

As for giving offense, that happens with the best of intentions.

I gave offense to our Mentor in Scriptural Studies last week, Joe Thur.

I called him by my own high school nickname, "Bible Boy" but did so ill-advisedly and I hurt him for which I apologised. My action remains reprehensible and I still feel like the a--hole I was when I said it.

I think the Forum is a lot more orderly, thanks to the Administrator's firm hand.

Twice already, I stopped myself from getting into a mud-slinging match with others, but referred the inflammatory issue to the Administrator who delivered his, as usual, sound judgement and headed off the problem in advance.

If you feel that something is untoward, I recommend you do the same - e-mail the Administrator and lay the issue before him for his own judgement.

God bless,

Alex

David and Columcille,

You can go back and read the posts on this subject. In my position as administrator I asked several participants who are Byzantine Catholic, Roman Catholic and Orthodox to be extra charitable in how they post and to avoid using pejoratives. I also asked these participants to enter into critical discussions of problems within a particular Church to do so by discussing specific issues rather than the typical &#8220;everyone knows that Church X is ultra liberal (or ultra conservative, or heretical)&#8221;.

Real discussions speaking to the confrontation the Church has with the secular, modern and morality deprived world which has become the American Culture would are welcomed. They would be both interesting and could benefit the Church as it attempts to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am only asking that such discussions be constructive rather than just litanies of complaints and undefined epithets that no one understands.

If certain posters feel that my requests are unacceptable then I am sorry.

Administrator

As an Orthodox Catholic, I think I should come out of a 'lurk' mode and give my opinion.

There have been posts here, mostly by Latin rites, where I have been anywhere from mildly to greatly offended. But they are few and far between. Because this is NOT an Orthodox site I expect difference of opinions. I don't expect to see things the same as others who post here. We are, after all, discussing our differences as well as what we have in common.
I was sad to see Sergei leave and hope he will come back. But, in my opinion this is still one of the best discussion groups I belong to.
I am not as kind to outsiders (both RC & Protestant) that come into the the Orthodox groups I belong to that are there to troll. Because, there I am continuely in a defensive mode and as such, have a tendency to get down in the gutter along with the person whose post I am reply to.
The difference here is that those who monitor never let things get out of control to the extent that we all get in the gutter and the mud slings.
And that's a breath of fresh air for me.
So the difference is that 99.9% of the people that post here I respect regardless of whether I agree with them or not. Ain't that way in some of the other sites I post in people..believe me!
So, though its nice to know that there are non Orthodox that are sensitive to my feelings as an Orthodox, I am not offended to the point of leaving the site.

I'm also happy with the new "format."

It certainly spares those of us who have very strong convictions from getting completely out of control and, by our words, humiliating the more irenic confreres of our respective communions and hurting those who share a tradition different from our own.

"If I lack charity..... ."

ER

My only issue has been, and today I can see it continues to be, the recitation by some here that this is a "Catholic BBS", as Dragani noted in another thread a short time ago.

I had *thought* that this was an ecumenical Forum focused on Byzantine Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) -- a place where these groups could discuss Byzantine Christianity with themselves and with others -- whether Latin Catholic, Pre-Chalcedonian Orthodox, etc. It's true that the Forum is hosted, graciously, by a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church. But previously, I had never been under the impression that this was a "Byzantine Catholic Forum", but rather a "Byzantine Forum", as the name implies.

It's not a question of semantics, but a question of substance. Anthony Dragani today, in his role as moderator, has attempted to moderate some conversation (which honestly was critical in substance but not hysterical, demeaning or uncivil, in my opinion) on the ground that this is a "Catholic BBS". Steve did much the same thing -- not as moderator, of course -- during Serge's days here. I understand that Anthony says he was trying to intervene before things started to heat up, but the basis for that intervention ought to be, ISTM, the tone of the posts, and not their substance. That latter sort of approach -- "hey, let's not have *those* opinions expressed here, this is a Catholic place" is chilling to the conversation. These comments were *never* made previously, IIRC. They ought not be made now, but alas they are being made.

That is the reason why I have limited my posting here (I really probably ought to have simply left, as I said I would) and why Serge has left. That kind of POV -- effectively censoring the substance (that's what Dragani did today -- his post was about the substance of the criticisms of Cardinal Kasper's remarks, not the tone or civility) based on the confessional affiliation of the owner of the Forum. I don't recall this place ever working that way, and if that becomes the M.O., that would be a shame because it would effectively chill much good discussion here.

Brendan

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Brendan ]

Dear Brendan,

Actually, I have to agree with you on this one.

I have nothing against Anthony and I believe his intentions were the best possible.

The issue you raise is worth pondering.

I have no problem with this being a Catholic BBS, but that's because I'm a BBS myself (Biased Byzantine Soul).

The thing is I was myself taken a bit aback with the idea that somehow I was seen as being disloyal, not just by Anthony, but by a few others (who should know better ).

In that case, being "Catholic" seemed to me to mean "defend the Church and her Cardinals, nomatter what! To arms!"

And I simply don't accept that, as I know you don't either.

And I did receive e-mails from Latin Catholics today who agreed with us on the "Cardinal Error," but who, for whatever reasons (and I don't want to know, Friends!), felt it "inappropriate" to post their true views.

Perhaps they felt they would be seen as "disloyal."

I think it would be inappropriate for anyone of us to hurl nastiness at any Patriarchate, Rome, Constantinople, Moscow or anyone - and I think I've made myself clear on that.

But I much prefer your definition of this Forum as a (civil) exchange of views and spirituality from the various Orthodox and Catholic Churches and traditions, including the Pre-Chalcedonian Orthodox (I just love your definition here!).

We all come here with some baggage with respect to other Churches, Rome, Moscow, what have you. But we should be civil, as most of us are, I believe, and refrain from allowing our religious/cultural pasts from interfering with enjoying one another's religious experiences today.

The Cardinal's views can be opposed by not only Orthodox Christians, such as yourself, Brendan, but also by people like me, by people like Mor Ephrem and by Roman Catholics for that matter.

Those who think this is disloyal probably have a hang-up about discussing anything religious in a dispassionate way for fear of appearing disloyal to their convictions.

In that case, they shouldn't be here because, sooner or later, they are going to get upset by even the most civil tone of discussion on a matter that is "taboo" for them.

I know I've had my own taboos stepped on. It hurt me, because I've never had them stepped on before. But I survived and I think I am a better person for it.

This Forum has helped me develop a greater appreciation for and knowledge of various Church traditions.

I think I've matured a bit as a result. When it comes to religion and ethnicity, I seem to lose any semblance of maturity. So the struggle here is all the great, the rewards all the better.

You've helped me mature, Brendan, so has Reader Sergius, and Joe Thur, and the Administrator and Anthony Dragani and . . .

I'll end here, lest this turn into a Litany and you start to suspect that I'm becoming Latinized as a result . . . (Give me points for trying at least!).

Alex

Brendan and Alex,

Some clarification is in order here.

For the record I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else criticizing the substance of Kasper's remarks, or those of any other Cardinal. Nor do I believe that only "Catholic opinions" are welcome on this board. By all means, speak honestly. I appreciate open, civil discourse.

And Alex, you are one of the most loyal Catholics I have ever met.

My "intervention," which is but a word of caution, was not directed at you or at any one else for that matter. Nor did I demand that the discussion end, close the thread, or warn anyone to back off. I am only urging all of you to be careful.

So why do I feel compelled to offer a word of caution? Because, alas, I saw several themes reappear that have caused endless heartache for the past several months. Specifically:

- the tired old rhetoric about the Pope supposedly kissing the Koran, bringing in pagan idols, etc.

- generalizations about "Vatican aggression" based on the remarks of a single Cardinal

- the same old "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite" language, which everyone on this forum knows is offensive and inflamatory

Therefore, since these are "hot topics" with a history of starting flame wars on this board, I am urging everyone to tread carefully, nothing more. This is not the heavy hand of censorship.
Clear enough?

Anthony

Dear Anthony,

As long as you think I'm loyal

But OneHoly has accused me of schism and heresy on another thread for not agreeing with Anselmian Soteriology.

He used the word "crap" in relation to me.

Could you please look into that?

I didn't know OneHol(ier) could excommunicate on this Forum.

I will bring this matter to the attention of the Administrator.

This is another case in which we are under attack by the Extreme Latins .

Alex

Alex,

If anyone accuses you of schism or heresy they need to get their heads examined. You are a prime model of Eastern Christianity in communion with Rome, and a nice guy to boot!

However, my watch doesn't extend beyond the Byzantine News forum. Thus, I am not going to get involved in that one.

Anthony

Brendan has clearly and concisely presented the reason for this board's existence and how it is to operate.

When I created this messageboard I chose the title &#8220;The Byzantine Forum&#8221; to communicate that this was a place for open discussions and especially those discussions focusing on topics relating specifically to Byzantine Christianity. My only requirements were that all discussions be conducted with Christian charity and that all viewpoints be respected. This board was not created as a &#8220;Catholic&#8221; board.

In recent months I have been disappointed by the posting behavior of some of the participants and have privately asked them to make sure that their posts are always charitable and to focus on specific issues rather that just posting general blanket statements against a specific Church. The use of the pejorative &#8220;AmChurch&#8221; is one example in which I asked posters to please refrain from using this epithet as its use only serves to detract from the argument one is making as well as generally insult our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. I also asked that if these participants could not keep their emotions in check or felt they could not refrain from using pejoratives that they simply not participate in those particular discussions. The majority of those I have asked to be more charitable in their posts have responded to me with an acknowledgement that some of their posts were less than charitable and promised to try harder to be charitable in all posts. A few have simply cried &#8220;censorship&#8221; and those threads are available for anyone to review.

Since The Byzantine Forum is meant to be an open marketplace of ideas no poster should expect another poster to stick up for them. A critical discussion of a particular issue within the Roman Catholic Church, for example, should be cause of our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters to respond intellectually and rationally and not just cry that the Roman Church is being attacked and we, as the Byzantine Catholic hosts, should censor the discussion. Any critical discussion presented with charity should be considered an acceptable discussion. Other critical discussions of the Byzantine Catholic, Orthodox, Pre-Calcedonian, Protestant or non-Christian faiths are also welcome as long as those discussions are disciplined and charitable with the proper respect being given to all viewpoints. The only discussions or posts I ask the moderators to intervene in are those which are extremely sarcastic or in another way uncharitable. ISTM that the better discussions have been those that have not been &#8220;quote wars&#8221;. A quote from Scripture, the Church fathers or the Catholic catechism can be helpful in making a point but the poster is the one who should develop the argument and explain how the quote is relevant rather than just thinking that the quote is self-explanatory.

I invite everyone to &#8220;log out&#8221; and click on &#8220;register&#8221; to re-read the rules and regulations.

"The use of the pejorative &#8220;AmChurch&#8221; is one example in which I asked posters to please refrain from using this epithet as its use only serves to detract from the argument one is making as well as generally insult our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. I also asked that if these participants could not keep their emotions in check or felt they could not refrain from using pejoratives that they simply not participate in those particular discussions."

I don't think the term is insulting at all-I think it reflects a problem that many Orthodox, from hardline old-calendarists in and out of SCOBA, to the SVS crowd, agree needs to be fixed in the Roman Catholic Church before full communion needs to be restored. I don't think there is freedom of speech on this board in that regard.

N.B.
I find it discomforting that I, as an Orthodox, can bend over backwards to be ecumencial on this board, (and in my private life) much more so than I have to be, and get hammered here for sticking up for orthodox Catholicism in the Church of Rome.


Michael

Holy Martyr Edmund Campion pray to God for us!

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Michael King ]

I am certainly open to being convinced that this term is not a pejorative. How is the use of this term necessary to an open debate about certain issues challenging the Roman Catholic Church in the United States? [I have yet to see any participant provide any definition of this term &#8211; let alone a clear and exhaustive one.] Would it not be better to identify and discuss each issue separately or even collectively rather than lump them together into a single term that is offensive to Roman Catholics? From my perspective the use of such terms would only alienate the people you want to reach.

Participants?