www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Regarding this Forum

As someone who occassionally has made the Administrator unhappy, I want to first thank him for his dedication.

One method I have found as to if a term in perjorative is to do a simple internet search. I not a single positive use of it shows up, than it can be considered perjorative.

Brendan and I had an exchange as to the use of a different term and he very kindly stated he would discontinue it after I pointed my results of the method I described.

Faults in the other communion is a tricky business. Harshly pointing them out can appear to be a modern 'uniatism', trying to buttress a favored element within the other communion rather than acting as ecumenism should be on a church to church basis. When individuals raise 'problems' with the other communion that has somehow missed the attention of their own church's hierarchs who led their ecumenical initiatives is always puzzling to me.

More puzzling to me ha beenin the past when we have had visits from persons totally opposed to any ecumencial relations with Catholics. I always wonder "Why are you here in a Catholic hosted place?" I would agree with the Administrator that it is best for this not to be characterized as a Catholic forum, but instead as Catholic sponsored, but I would hope folks could admit that they are accepting and legitimatizing Catholic hospitality.

K.

Brendan,

I made the statement earlier today that this was a "Catholic BBS." The administrator has just made it clear that it isn't. I was mistaken, and I apologize for posting wrong information.

I hope that there are no bad feelings between us. I have always valued your opinions and insights, even when I disagreed with you.

Anthony

I too would like to see a few more Orthodox post here, especially since Serge left/was asked to leave. Postings from clergy would be particularly welcomed by me. But I appreciate the tolerance and openness of the Moderator and others.

Axios

I guess I should make clear what I mean by stating that The Byzantine Forum is not a "Catholic" bulletin board. To me, a Catholic bulletin board is one where Catholic teaching is given preference. From my perspective Catholic Teaching is sufficiently strong enough to withstand any critical discussion as long as such critical discussion is offered in charity and with honesty. This does not and should not mean that the Catholic Church is to be the target of attack and I hope all posters understand the difference.

It seems that I have put Moderator Anthony in an awkward position. I apologize to him and the readers for not making this clear. Anthony was correct in his post in the other thread in his call for posters to be extra charitable. Critical discussion does not equate to mudslinging and he was correct in calling for caution.

--

Axios,

Once again, for the record, Serge is welcome to post on the Forum. He was asked only to refrain from the use of the pejorative "AmChurch". His public posting on this topic are available for reading.

Administrator

What occurs to me is the fact that there is a chiasmus (cross-referencing) between Catholic/Orthodox issues and conservative/liberal issues in church life.

There are those who consider current developments in the Roman Catholic community as "liberal" and therefore in opposition to "orthodoxy" or 'traditionalism'. Thus, the term AmChurch as a perjorative term indicating that American Catholicism is 'out of control' and disparaging the 'traditional' tenets.

The chaismus also applies, in a reverse sort of way, when Roman Catholics inveigh against Eastern Orthodox traditionalism as an impediment to ecumenical discussions and progress.

The problem seems to lie not in the theologies, liturgies, or ascetics of the various communities, but rather in the socio-political perspectives of the posters, i.e., "I don't like XYZ practices and therefore those who practice XYZ are heretical, non-apostolic, etc."

There is an additional problem in the fact that there is a tendency to put blanket labels on various communities and to either praise or condemn them based upon some generic paradigm. I.e., ALL RCs are ultra-liberal, all Orthodox are ultra-conservative. This is just not the reality as I have seen it. But it's convenient. Especially if you have an axe to grind against one or other perspective.

For me, the ultimate is the loving-kindness that we muster to show love, kindness, respect and deference to each other as baptized Christians. For many (most?) Eastern Catholics, there are roots splaying out into the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communities. And through our blood, I guess, we just don't feel comfortable with the 'extremist' perspective in either community since we ourselves have had to integrate the realities into our daily and familial lives. We have had, perforce of our existence, to go beyond the jurisdictional stuff because to not do so would destroy our families. And that's the extreme ethnic no-no. And thus, Eastern Catholics don't have the luxury of becoming radicals one way or the other. And why the pain of 'schism' is so great for us. (And for lots of our Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic brethren who are 'related' to us through blood or marriage.)

The forum is for me a great place to hold discussions and to learn about how the 'other guys' live. I hope that it will ennoble my spiritual journey to God. And I hope that it will continue to provide a lot of delights in the smorgasbord of spiritual gifts both for myself and for the other posters (and lurkers) who come here to make spiritual progress.

Blessings!

It's not a question of semantics, but a question of substance. Anthony Dragani today, in his role as moderator, has attempted to moderate some conversation (which honestly was critical in substance but not hysterical, demeaning or uncivil, in my opinion) on the ground that this is a "Catholic BBS". Steve did much the same thing -- not as moderator, of course -- during Serge's days here.

It is evident that I have made mistakes and I am truly sorry. I had no wish to moderate conversation simply because this is a Catholic BBS. It is a cause of sadness to me that at least some of what I said has been seen in that light.

I intended to request civility and respect and balanced presentation of information in discussions about some issues pertaining to the Latin Church. I have no desire to stir the pot or to cause problems here when I rise to defend her.

I think that the guidelines of the Administrator make eminent good sense!

Steve
JOY!

ROFL!!!!

I'm sorry but... how extremely charitable of you for sticking up for orthodox Catholicism inside this out-of-control Americana.

You are correct of course to a point. You understand it's not that I laugh because you think that American Catholicism is faceing some rather important issues within it's self, but well... that your the harbinger of orthodoxy for the American Catholic Church.

By the way note that we Roman Catholics don't get bent out of shape with the use of "orthodox" next to catholic when speaking of us. And to be frank I don't care if the word "AmChurch" is used or not. It is evident that deep feelings are running inside of Byzantium, all of which I submit I don't understand, and I am certain that whether "AmChurch" is used or not no love for the American Catholic Church or the Latin Catholic Church over all will be forth coming.

Also it would be wrong for me to stir up trouble in a place that is not entirely welcoming to who I am. So I will do my earnest to play low key, as a Roman voice is percieved rather dominering around here.

I would also suggest - in all honesty now - that Orthodoxy with the big O be embraced as the method of discussion. Not that Byzantines aren't catholics, but that if we all want to be honest here... the Orthodox is whom you wish to commune with in discussion and real dialoge. And I hope your wishes of acceptance by the Orthodox come true and bare good fruit.

For myself I remain Latin Catholic but may become... a Latin Catholic in commune with Buddhism so that ought to be a funny one. If I have any Latin Catholic thoughts I'll try to take them to a Latin Catholic site or keep them to myself


Justin

The issue is not criticism per se, but the mindset and charity behind it.

For me, the ideal example of criticism with charity is Archimandrate Robert Taft. He has devoted his life to studying Eastern liturgy, yet can be unsparing in pointing out shortcomings in the East. What makes his critiques so exemplary is that they always point to a "falling short" of what should be and should be striven for.

As a Roman Catholic, I do not mind (and should take to heart) negative comments which show how the RCC is failing to live up to what it is capable of becoming, or what it has been in the past. I am less tolerant of "critiques" which find the RC Church fundamentally flawed and beyond hope. Fortunately, there is very little of this on the board.

Dear StevenH,

And some of us just revel in our Latinisms, like me!

I wouldn't be without them, even though I know I raise some Byzantine eye-brows (like I care!).

Love your Rosary, Scapular and other devotions.

Thank you for them!! Thank you for people like you, Angela, Steve and Maximus!

Alex

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Administrator,

If the term "AmChurch" is used to describe the entire Latin Church in the U.S., or even a great majority of it, and I don't know if it is, then it is certainly offensive and should not be entertained by participants here.

My own view was that it was used to describe a bothersome attitude evident in Latin Catholic parishes where even the Novus Ordo rubrics are being violated.

I've seen this happen at Novus Ordo masses I've attended. I certainly didn't raise ire with the priest, but other Latin Catholics did, as this was their Church, not mine.

I agree that this Forum should not be a sounding board for the gripes of converts to Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholicism regarding their bad personal experiences with the Church they left behind in the dust.

Converts have their own perspective and there is a place for it - I just don't know where, as yet.

But if we share in a mutually responsible discussion of points of shared interest and spirituality between our various Churches, we wouldn't have time for negative comments.

And the Byzantine Forum is a meeting point, a nexus where we can come together and receive some inspiration and friendship.

There are days when I am extremely alone and anxious. It is then especially that my fellowship with the people makes my spirit soar!

I won't talk of the "AmChurch," but of the "M-Church" or the Melkites.

They are never offensive!

Alex

Personally, I was not at all offended at Serge's use of "AmChurch". It fairly describes a part of the RCC mindset. The problem with painting with such a broad brush, though, is that it doesn't capture countervailing trends -- like those of us RC's who participate in this Forum. While it might have been an inadequate description, it was never malicious.

I am an infrequent visitor here. I used to come by this Board a lot before the crash.

While I have not personally seen many attacks by Roman Catholics against Orthodox (I am Roman Catholic) I used to see plenty of blatant attacks by certain Orthodox (not all) against the RCC here. I have not seen these people post here since this board was restored. I chose not to respond to them, but I was frequently disappointed that their messages were not mediated.

Since this is a Byzantine Catholic board, the focus should be on Eastern Catholicism and its relationship with Holy Orthodoxy, and not focused on the Latin Church, for which there are numerous message boards on the Web.

I came across this Board three years ago and I have learned a lot. The Holy Father, in Orientale Lumen, has called on Eastern Catholics to reclaim their historical traditions, spirituality and practices. He also called on Latin Catholics to better learn and understand the Churches of the East. I live in Western Pennsylvania, where it isn't difficult to find an Eastern Catholic Church, and it is still amazing to me that there are so many Latin Catholics who are totally unaware of the existence of the Eastern Churches. This saddens and angers me.

Because of this website, I attended a Divine Liturgy in St. John's Cathedral in Munhall - a most beautiful church. Because of this website, I had the opportunity to meet Archbishop Proczyk (SIC?) Because of this website, I did some volunteer work with the Sister of St. Basil in Uniontown for the Our Lady of Perpetual Help pilgrammage. They are wonderful people who have been most kind to me.

For all the good work EWTN does, they shaft the Eastern Church completely. If EWTN can broadcast a Mass in Spanish from Santiago, Chile every week, then EWTN can broadcast a Divine Liturgy every week, too. Until they do, they won't receive a dime from me. Now, I am not insulting the work EWTN does in relation to those who speak spanish - my girlfriend is a citizen of war-torn Colombia - but if they want to call themselves the "Global Catholic Network" they can do a better job of covering the East.

Far too much time is spent here squabbling over the role of the Pope or Ecumenical Councils and things like that. What there isn't is a lot of forgiveness bewteen our respective Churches. We have far more in common than anyone would like to admit and we take our differences and make them inot mountains. I'm not saying that they aren't important, but forgiveness is a first step. Does anyone think that Jesus is thrilled or excited that the Church that actually believes in the Real Presence in the Eucharist split 1000 years ago and won't forgive past hurts?

I am ethnically Polish. My great grandfather stowed away on a boat to escape Russian suppression and partition of Poland in the early 20th century. Now, should I hate Russians, and Orthodox, because of what was done to Poland before and after WWII? Or should I forgive? Should I hate Orthodoxy or try to understand it better? And for those who were abused by the Polish, like the Ukranians - should they hate the Polish and the Latin Church? Or forgive them?

Each of us faces serious challenges. The Orthodox, especially in Russia, must try to overcome decades of suppression caused by the Soviet government and restore itself among the Russian people. The Easter Catholics face the challenge of rebuilding itself in Europe and retainig its members in the United States when they move far from home (I think most Eastern Catholics come from Pennsylvania and Ohio in the USA) and either must drive incredible distances to attend a Divine Liturgy or go to a Latin Catholic Mass. We Catholics of the West also face declining numbers in parts of the country and many who are Catholics in name only, who embrace popular culture and the rot that goes with it.

We ALL face the challenge of popular culture in the West, its glorification of wealth, its empty praise of celebrities and their bankrupt lifestyles, the continued mainstreaming of porn by the entertainment industry, abortion, bad public schools, etc.

Mainstream culture has crippled the old mainline Protestant churches in the USA, probably permanently. It has attacked the Catholic Church in the USA, Canada and Europe, and damaged it, but has not destoyed it.

We have a lot more in common than we do that separates us. If we worked together we could accomplish a lot. Maybe ther won't ever be a formal reunificatin of Catholics and Orthodox, but we can all be a lot more civil to each other.

Right on friend. This is one Orthodox who hopes we can improve relations with the Catholic Church, of which I have great respect for.

Axios

I concur with brother Axios. The most wonderful perspective from Bridgeville, Penna. is a call to reconciliation and love. Bless you!!

Blessings to all!

After some more reflection on my part I have the following to say.

I have realized that the problems/issues that I have and that I raised in this topic are my problems/issues. I must deal with them.

They were not caused by anyone else, they are mine.

I wish to ask forgiveness from everyone especailly those that took offense to this topic.


David