www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What to do about Judaism

Few have expressed an opinion about Judaism. Here's your chance to do so and remain anonymous if you wish.

Dan L

What to do about Judaism multiple choice, up to 2 choices

Ignore them even when they seem to be persecuting Christians and Muslims. (0%, 0 Votes)

Withdraw all support from Israel while supporting the Arab states. (12%, 4 Votes)

Support Israel as the Jews only place of refuge. (18%, 6 Votes)

Seek to convert as many Jews as possible to Christiantiy. (47%, 16 Votes)

Other (please explain); (24%, 8 Votes)

Total Votes: 34 Voting on this poll ends: 0 seconds ago

I cannot believe some of those question options especially in the year 2005 and 40 years after "Nostra Aetate" at Vatican II

Since we have no perspective as to the intent of Dan�s questions, I agree with Brain that the questions come across as in poor taste. Dan, can you please provide some perspective on why you asking these questions in this manner?

As Christians, we are to always strive to use the example of our lives to win the entire world to Christ. The world includes everyone, the unchurched and those who believe in God but do not know Christ (Jews and Muslims). But beyond the example of our own personal faith and charitable apologetics, there is no question of any forcible evangelization to win others to Christ.

We can, of course, be Christians and hold differing opinions regarding the country of Israel (on those issues belonging to politics). Some Christians support the existence of Israel. Other Christians do not. It is not necessarily anti-Semitic to call for the dissolution of a Jewish religious state. There are many aspects of politics that are not directly addressed by the Church and in which individuals have freedom to determine their own positions.

Regarding America, if the United States continues to abandon the Judeo-Christian morality as the foundation for decisions regarding morality, then issues like this will certainly become more of a free for all. I saw someone on one of the cable news shows this past week making the point that helping the tsunami victims was a Christian response and that the United States should not be using taxpayer dollars to enforce the Christian moral value of helping those in need.

Brian and John,

They may be in poor taste. They may not be. I'm simply trying to ask questions based upon some of the posts I've observed people making who have been posting here for a while.

I do believe that Christians will be giving the bulk of world-wide support to the the Tsunami victims. I suspect that the logical conclusion to the modernist experiment is atheism and in that context your last paragraph does not surprise me.

Dan L

First, "judeo-christian" morality is essentially a meaningless term because Jewish morality does not mirror Christian morality. IMHO it's 'paternalistic' towards Jews. For example, Jewish law allows abortions in certain cases so a ban on abortion would actually circumvent Jewish law. Jewish law allows abortion when the life of the mother is threatened by the birth of another child. The mother's emotional health can be considered.

Second, IMHO it is the height of arrogance to suggest that helping the tsunami victims is a "Christian response." Other religions also have dictates to help the unfortunate. Further, would that person also say that the US should not use tax dollars to pay for Medicare (arguably a "Christan response"), Medicaid or welfare? What about the occupation of Iraq? That's usually justified in moral terms, i.e. bringing freedom to Iraq and saving the Iraqis from their murderous dictator?

Taking a wild guess here, the cable news program was on Fox and the commentator was fundygelical?

Jennifer,

Actually I assumed that it was just the opposite of the fundy evangelical. I hear many non-Christian commentators arguing for the separation of Church and State to the degree that the government should do nothing that even looks Christian.

There is a liberal Baptist group that might argue the same thing but most Christians would see that the morality that forms the basis of charity comes from Christians and Jews.

Dan L

Interesting and disturbing. Maybe the person on the news show would suggest that our response should be as great as the Muslim response? What response did they recommend?

Let us pray for Communism, Nazism, Fascism, Militant Atheism, Militant Islamicism, Totalitarianism, Despotism, Terror, and the rest. And let all those who prefer such things will someday have to live under them.

Again I voted "other" because again it is prayer that will change the world and as St. Paul says in Romans 11:25, Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Rom 11:34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
Rom 11:35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen

John

Deacon John,

St. Paul instructions give us all pause. I believe it is necessary to treat our Jewish friends with the greatest respect. God has not forsaken them and the witness we share must be done with great circumspection.

Dan L

Brian,

Please be more specific. Are you suggesting that conversion is not something we should pray for either for the Jews, Muslims, or Cafeteria Catholics? How do you mean to apply the teachings of Pope Paul VI to our present discussion?

Here are the last two paragraphs of Nostra Aetate. How might these apply to our present discussion?

"No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned."

Does he mean here that Hitler and Stalin are no different from St. Francis or Mother Theresa? Or does he mean that every human being deserves respect even if we find his/her actions deplorable? I trust he would opt for the latter.

"he Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15"

How does this last paragraph have anything to do with our discussion except that some posters have hinted at a disrespect for Jews? I certainly haven't.

Dan L

WHOA Dan! Looks like your question/post came to number 1666. UNLUCKY numbers! EEEEK! (Just kidding! )

I know 4 people who converted to Christianity from Judaism (2 of them Roman Catholic 2 of them Byzantine Catholic).

One of my closest friends, converted to BYZCATH from Judasim...and one of the many things he said about Christianity is that Christianity is actually an elevated form of Judaism. Not "BETTER" than Judaism, just elevated, more like the fullness of Judaism.

So I told him that I'm surprised to hear he said that....and then he proceeded to outline all the stuff in Old Testament that led to the New Testament and how much of the New Testament is a fullfillment of the Old...and how much it was carried over in more of a transcended way and that there are so much similarities between Byz Cath with Judaism (hate to say, more than Roman Catholicism, although there are some elements there).

Interesting. SO I kinda understand why the Vatican didn't want us to "convert" the Judaism. It's simply up to us to pray for them to see the enlightment of the truth which we carry out from Christ's mouth to present day. Once they "open their eyes" then they can proceed their faith to another level.

Our Liturgies is indeed a Passover Supper...which we kept it on. But don't see why we don't celebrate the Hannukah. I think it's amazing that the menorah burned for 8 days...but then again...it's like Christ rose from the dead on the 8th Day (Sunday)...He is the True Light which illuminated the entire creation (heavens, earth, etc.)...so similar! A light that's brighter than a flame on the 8th day. (besides...I'd LOVE to have gifts for 8 days in a row! LOL )

Blessings,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Jennifer,

The use of invectives like �fundygelical� are not allowed on this Forum. If you wish to spout such hatred there are plenty of other forums you can join. Please consider this a warning. If you choose to speak uncharitably about other people again you will forfeit your posting privileges on the Forum. You have been warned before about your lack of charity. Please choose to exhibit charity in your posts.

Admin

Well, Admin, as we both know I don't have charity in my heart.

I find your warnings to be partisan given that they were never issued against a person who referred to me publically as a "troll."

I also note that the person who wrote that Muslim people should "cease to exist" was not warned about his lack of charity.

BTW, it's not "hatred." But I will abide by your wish that it not be used on this forum. Perhaps you should make a sticky of the terms you won't allow here given that these terms are used regularly on other religious forums so some of us don't know that you think they're "hateful."

Joe,

I only caught part of the segment, and I don�t remember the title they had under the lady. I was channel surfing and quickly moved on once I saw what it was. The segment seemed to be about how the West (which is nominally Christian) is giving lots of aid while the Muslim countries are giving almost nothing compared to the West (when the victims are mostly Muslim). But at the same time the lady was complaining about being forced to act like a Christian in providing aid through her tax dollars she was complaining that the United Nations should be in charge. My guess is that she was from a group like �American Atheists� or �Americans United for Separation of Church and State�. To her credit she did mention that if people wanted to give money they were free to.

Admin