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Mar 25th, 2025
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Got this in the emai. I hope it is true:According to a report in the French Edition of Una Voce, a certain
> Father Blet, S. J. reports on the ongoing discussions between the
> Curia and the principals of the Society of Pius X. Within this
> report is the following sentence:
>
> Le R.P. Blet donne une information rest�e confidentielle
> jusqu'ici: � Le pape lui-m�me a c�l�br� cette messe
> durant ses derni�res vacances. �
>
> (my translation)
>
> The reverend Blet reveals what had been confidential until now:
> " The Pope celebrated this Mass himself during his recent vacation."
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May Our Lord helps HH John Paul II in order to restore the Traditional Latin Mass fully throughout the entire Church.
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And forget not the other Latin usages of Mozarabic, Ambrosian, and Bragan.
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Well y'all do know of the FSSP don't y'all? They celebrate the Tridentine Mass, but are in complete union with Rome. One parish, St. Francis de Sales, is just 45 minutes away from my town. This particular parish uses everything according to Tridentine tradition, from Baptism to Extreme Unction.
Soli Deo Gratia,
ChristTeen287
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Axios:
He is not normally able to offer up the Latin Mass because it is not the normal usage for the Roman Rite.
As a Bishop he could not offer it up without special permission from the Pope. The same goes for when he was cardinal.
As Pope, he can only do so with a private Mass.
The Holy Father offered the Mass of all time every day (except Good Friday) when he was a priest and even in his first few years as Bishop.
Joe Zollars
PS: This is the first time that the Holy Father has offered the Latin Mass since his elevation to the See of Peter. He has done ordinations for the Institute of Christ the King (a Traditional Order) but it was through a Novus Ordo in Latin.
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Cardinal Ratzinger had a full pontifical for the FSSP in the Tridentine Rite last year. Several bishops in the US and Canada have performed ordinations and confirmations for the FSSP using the pontifical ritual of the Tridentine usage.
[ 09-13-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]
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Originally posted by akemner:
And forget not the other Latin usages of Mozarabic, Ambrosian, and Bragan. Bring back the Sarum rite! Bring back Gallic rites! Let a thousand liturgies bloom. But, let's make sure we don't continue to propagate the liturgical errors of the medieval and renaissance periods. Unless all these rites can be made consistent with Sacrosanctum Concilium, their celebration is nothing more than an exercise in empty traditionalism.
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Well, the Divine Liturgy of St Ambrosius is still celebrated in Milan, Italy; and the Mozarabic Rite (although it's celebrated in modern Spanish) is performed in a small parish of Toledo (and it sounds very much like a Greek Mass, according to my friends).
The restoration of the other rites (galician, bragan, sarum) would be a case of antropological pathology, an artificial re-creation of a dead thing, and it would be a false reality. As you know, there are many "independent" jurisdictions (some of them masquerating as orthodox) that offer those rites. Most of them seem to be do-it-yourself rites and not true rites.
The Apostolic Churches have always been very careful about this.
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Joe Z: His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, or any Pope for that matter, has the authority and the privilege to celebrate the Mass (or Divine Liturgy) at any time in any of the rites extant in the Catholic Church, more so of his ouwn particular Church, the Roman Catholic Church. The current rites in the Latin Church, as I have posted in another thread, are: 1. Roman:
The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general (about a Billion of us) belong to this Rite. The current Roman Rite is that of the 1969 Missale Romanum (or the Novus Ordo to you), published in a third edition in 2001.
There are 2 sub-rites (rescensions?) allowed by the Vatican for use by specified groups, to wit:
(a) Missal of 1962 (Tridentine Mass):
Some institutes within the Roman Rite, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, have the faculty to celebrate the sacramental rites according to the forms in use prior to the Second Vatican Council. This faculty can also be obtained by individual priests from their bishop or from the Pontifical Council Ecclesia Dei.
(b)Anglican Use:
Since the 1980s the Holy See has granted some former Anglican and Episcopal clergy converting with their parishes the faculty of celebrating the sacramental rites according to Anglican forms, doctrinally corrected.
2. Mozarabic:
The Rite of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) known from at least the 6th century, but probably with roots to the original evangelization. Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained the Rite of the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and six parishes which sought permission to adhere to it. Its celebration today is generally semi-private.
3. Ambrosian:
The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy, thought to be of early origin and probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose. Pope Paul VI was from this Roman Rite. It continues to be celebrated in Milan, though not by all parishes.
4. Bragan:
Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primatial See of Portugal, it derives from the 12th century or earlier. It continues to be of occasional use.
5. Dominican:
Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.
6. Carmelite:
Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154.
7. Carthusian:
Rite of the Carthusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084. AmdG
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Yes, he has the aurthority to do so, but this is the first time that this he has said a Tridentine Mass since the start of his pontificate.
The Bishops who perform confirmations, ordinations, or offer up a Pontifical High Mass for the FSSP do so with a very special indult from the Pope.
There is a Bishop here in Kansas who has recieved a very special indult to continue saying the Tridentine Mass until his death at St. Andrew's Catholic Church in Wichita KS. His name is His Excellency, Eugene Gerber.
To my knowledge, His Holiness has never offered up an Anglican Use Liturgy or the liturgy of one of the other western Rites during his pontificate.
Joe Zollars
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Originally posted by Johanam:
Yes, he has the aurthority to do so, but this is the first time that this he has said a Tridentine Mass since the start of his pontificate.
The Bishops who perform confirmations, ordinations, or offer up a Pontifical High Mass for the FSSP do so with a very special indult from the Pope.
There is a Bishop here in Kansas who has recieved a very special indult to continue saying the Tridentine Mass until his death at St. Andrew's Catholic Church in Wichita KS. His name is His Excellency, Eugene Gerber.
Joe Zollars Joe, What is this "very special indult" from the Pope? I understood that each local Roman Ordinary (diocesan bishop) is to determine the pastoral necessity of allowing the celebration of the Mass according to the 1963(1964?) Roman Missal. The local Ordinary needs no "very special indult" to celebrate according to this Missal within his own diocese at least since 1988 with the issuance of the motu propio, Ecclesia dei.
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it is the Missal of 1962 first of all, but secondly:
For a Bishop to offer up the Latin Mass or offer those Sacraments reserved to a Bishop in the Latin Rite according to the ritual of 1962, he must have permission from the Pope just as a Priest must have permission of the Bishop in order to offer the Latin Mass or any Sacraments (Confession, Extreme Unction, etc.) according to the Ritual of 1962.
Joe Zollars
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Shlomo Amado, You missed the Lyonais or Gallic Rite of the Roman Church. One of the things that is happening is that these rites (the correct usage for a change  ) are spreading, especially the Mozarabic rite. More and more Spanish speaking priests, many from the New World, are learning it. In Spain, more parishes are using it, and if I can find the article, the Spanish Bishops Conference plans on having that rite become the predominate one of Spain. In closing here is the Mozarabic Morning Prayer for the board. I hope to post the entire Liturgy for you soon. The Mozarabic Morning Prayer As watchmen wait for the morning, so do our souls long for you, O Christ. Come with the dawning of the day, and make yourself known to us in the breaking of bread; for you are our God for ever and ever. Amen. Yuhannon
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The Mozarabic Tradition was also brought to New Mexico (at that time part of Spain, then of Mexico until the angle invasion in 1847). This tradition also existed in many towns of Mexico, but there, the baroque architecture prevailed over the Mozarabic one.
If you go there you'll see those churches in a very Eastern Style, pure "adobe" is used for their construction, and they used to have icons. New Mexicans, as well as some Mexicans from the cenrtre of the country have a lot of Mozarabic blood. The rite was used in Taos, New Mexico (Puebla de Taos, San Fernando de Taos)and Guanajuato, Mexico, until the 1800, this rite is been rescued by New Mexican nationalists in the seminaries.
As you said many Spanish priests want to restore it, as well as Bishops and here in the New World too, but there is a problem:
if this rites are retored, but the Novus Ordo culture with its music and its inherent liberalisms is incorporated, the rite will not have its original purity and there'll be a mess of identity (just see what is happening with the Antiochian. Western Rites).
I am sorry if I have deviated the original topic in this Byzantine forum, but there are a lot of things that Eastern Christians have to say about this interesting thread.
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