www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pope offers up Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the Missal of Pius V

It is normaly celebrated in a Vizigothic form of Latin, not Spanish. All of the offical books are in this dialect. Everything was in Latin when I was there earlier this year. The music does sound very "Greek" (Byzantine).

Michael


"...the Mozarabic Rite (although it's celebrated in modern Spanish) is performed in a small parish of Toledo (and it sounds very much like a Greek Mass, according to my friends)."

I am indeed glad to hear that the Mozarabic Rite is spreading. There are also FSSP Priests who offer the Ancient Dominican Mass, these even here in the good ole US of A. There are also FSSP Priests who offer the Sarum Mass in England.

The FSSP has apparently taken it upon itself to bring back tradition in all its forms. Deo Gratias!!!!

I believe it is important for Latins to support the FSSP (www.fssp.org [fssp.org], www.fssp.com) [fssp.com)] and they are a truly wonderful order.

In pray for the return tradition,
Joe Zollars

PS: I am most eager to see the Mozarabic Rite ritual. I am also interested in seeing the rituals for these other Rites.

Joe, the bishop does not have to have an "indult" from the Pope to say an accepted and promulgated Rite of the Latin Church. The Bishop, as the chief pastor of his territory, can decide that and can delegate that indult to individual priests who request it. An individual bishop could also theoretically give approval to an Ambrosian or Mozarabic celebration if he so desired.

Any Latin bishop, in accord with Ecclesia Dei, can offer the 1962 Mass himself and give permission to others to use it. As regards the FSSP, they have to be formally invited by a bishop into a diocese, not the Pope. Once again, that is the local bishop's call to invite them in or not.

While there is a Latin Mass in Wichita, the FSSP has not yet been formally invited there. In some of the dioceses surrounding you, namely Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and the Archdiocese of Kansas City (Kansas) the FSSP has been invited.

Archbishop Kelleher in Kansas City has performed three full pontificals so far for confirmation of the Latin Mass faithful. And in Lincoln, Nebraska where the FSSP seminary is located Bishop Bruskewitz regularly celebrates pontificals using the 1962 missal and performs ordinations for the FSSP.

Diak:

After more research, you are correct.

They have not been invited into this Diocese because the Bishop does not want to have a full time indult parish.

+Olmstead loves the ancient traditions of the Roman Rite, but he does not want to have to give up one of the regular diocesan churches to the FSSP.

Also, in a newsletter sent out about a year ago from the North American province of the FSSP, they stated that they have recieved hundreds of requests from the Bishops in North America to begin new apostolates in their dioceses. The FSSP will not fill these requests at once. The FSSP believes in their Priests living in community. Therefore there are always two or three Priests at each apostolate, or at least there are supposed to be.

In years to come we will see Latin Mass Apostolates springing up all over the country. Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary is full to the gills and turns away more than a hundred people a year who qualify for the FSSP and they are not an easy order to qualify for. According to one of my contacts in the FSSP, they have at least one request for information a day.

There has also been another order, Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem, that was just founded within the Last two months.

According to one of my contacts in the FSSP, they also have several Fransiscans from Mexico City studing in their seminary in order to be able to offer the Ancient Latin Mass.

Of course all this pales in comparison to the European Province and particularly to France where the Latin Mass is booming and the Fontgomboult Benidictines are establishing Monastery after Monastery and their Fontgoumboult abey is overflowing.

Our Lady of Clear Creek here in the US is also expanding and once they get a proper abey built they will expand even more.

One archbishop in France, whose name escapes me at the moment, remarked "Most of the people in France who even bother to go to Mass anymore, go to the Latin Mass."

Deo Gratias,
Joe Zollars

Back to the OT, I am still surprised John Paul has never once pontificated at a Tridentine Mass as Pope until recently. Why so reluctant?

Axios

Axios:

The reason is: liberalism.


Could you imagine how scandalized the latin-american bishops of the liberation theology would be if the Pope celebrates a Tridentine Mass?

The promulgation of Ecclesia Dei and the indults were a "pain in the nose" for the liberal factions who wanted that rite to be totaly supressed.

On the other side, for hundreds of traditionalists, the indult itself and the status of the indult, is a humilliation for one of the most ancient rites of the Universal Church.

John Paul II, as well as Cardinal Ratzinger seem to be totaly in favor of the full restoration of the Traditional Mass, but the Pope's authority is very limited in that issue (since the New Mass was made mandatory by a Council, they can't do anything to modify it) and that restoration would cause distress among many bishops (it would be in detriment of the New Order).

[ 09-14-2002: Message edited by: Remie ]

Hey guys you'll love to read this, it's a little bit old, but...

A Sarum Mass was celebrated in England

http://www.unavoce.org/sarum_rite.htm

Dear Joe,

Why does he not want to have to "give up" a parish? Don't parishes administered by religious orders still fall under the jurisdiction of the local ordinary? Why would this be seen as losing a parish? I would think that if there was a demand for the old Mass, he would love to see more people come to church. What am I missing?

because he barely has enough Churches as it is in Wichita the churches are packed to the gills for the Novus Ordo and he needs that Church to still say the Novus Ordo.

Joe Zollars

If the Pope truly has as little authority and power as Remie suggestions, I think we can have re-union almost immediately. We have clealry overestimated the papal role.

Axios

Axios:

True Orthodoxy cannot be in union with the Current RC. Thank God for this. Liberalism has poisened the waters in RC. We should notsubject the Orthodox Christians of the world to the liberalism. You see, liberalism is like a cancer. It spreads and spreads and spreads until eradicated by chemo therapy or stopped by death. In this case, the Chemo Therapy is the prayers and devotions that have filled the RC for centuries and were taken away just over 3 decades ago. They continue on in the Tridentine and Anglican Use parishes, but they do not continue on in most, if not all, Novus Ordo parishes. What I am talking about is Tuesday Night Our Lady of Perpetual Hope devotions, Thursday Night Benediction, Friday Stations of the Cross (now only done during lent in most places). etc, etc, etc.

Joe Zollars

Joe, I have attended RC Masses in Wichita and you are right that the churches are full. But for that matter, so are the RC churches here in Topeka. If the state of the RC Church is so bad, as you allege, then why are the churches in this area so full? Also here in Topeka, most parishes have large RCIA programs and receive many new members every year. That does not sound like a sign of illness to me? As for your theory that those old devotions are needed to fix whatever you may feel is wrong with the RC Church. I remember those devotions and I personally miss them and feel they have a place in a parish's life. However, I would much rather see a church packed for Mass, than to stress non-liturgical stuff like that. Times have changed my friend and in non-essentials the Church has too. Modern people need to be fed spiritually and they need the meat and potatoes of the Mass, Scriptures and Eucharist, not a spiritual snack like novenas. Also, I don't think you should be putting words in your bishop's mouth about why he may or many not invite FSSP to your diocese. If he has publicly stated, or even privately to you, that he won't do it because he doesn't want to give up a parish to them it is one thing, but if you only assume this is the reason it is another. You made it sound like as if you have direct knowledge of his intentions. If so, clearly state it, if not then you should make it clear this is only your opinion. As for your comment about "True Orthodoxy", I'll let that one slide for the moment. Don

In other words, it was the venacular devotions that saved the Catholic Church during the time of the Latin Mass?

Axios

Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia as well as just about all the hymns for the 40 hours devotion and many of the other prayers were said in Latin.

Don, you are correct this is my opinion based on several conversations I have had with my Bishop.

Joe Zollars

Most catholics think that the Orthodox Churches are extremely divided (in jursidictions), but it's healthy to see how divided the Roman Catholic Church is. I've visited many catholic parishes, attended services there, and it has amazed me that each parish seems to have a different mass. The sense of catholicism now is very divisive.

The problem of the inter-juridictional dialogue and the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue in general (for example, between Melkites and Antiochians) could not fulfill what was expected (common sacraments, concelebration of Divine Liturgy) because of the same reason: for exapmple, melkites and antiochians have the same liturgy, same structure and a theology that was in proccess of re-unification, but the Orthodox Churches oppose to recognize the common sacraments as there is not a full unity in faith. Anyway, melkites and other eastern catholics have Orthodox Liturgies, and Orthodox theologies, but in many things, they still depend on the same liberal and modernist bishops of the Latin Church, and they are in full communion with them (so you won't have the Othodox Sacraments).
I'm sure that many things would change if the RC returns to orthodoxy and discipline in her faith and her liturgy, eliminating all the non-catholic (therefore, non-orthodox) elements of the modernized Church).

May the good Lord help His Holliness John Paul II to fully restore the Traditional Mass throughout the World. I'm sure that God will hear our prayers (catholic and orthodox).