www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pope offers up Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the Missal of Pius V

Yes, but we are not to be denied the ancient heritage of the Latin Rite, including posture. AT the Tridentine Mass the complete rubrics of the 1962 Mass are to be maintained. However at more than one Tridentine Mass I attended recently the local Bishop had ordered the people to no longer kneel. At one Mass this resulted in everyone staying in their pews and only the Priest and Altar Boys recieving Communion. I have even heard of one instance where the Bishop demanded this and everyone in the parish got up and walked three blocks down the street to the FSSPX chapel.

I care not about the GIRM for the new rite, I do not follow the new Rite. I seldom if ever when in attendance at a new Mass will go up for communion. Those I do communicate at are where I am personally aquainted with the Priest and he allows me to kneel.

I respect the venerable traditions of the East, yet there is nil respect on this board for the venerable traditions of the west. Well there is respect for the traditions of the west among those who are heavily involved with other boards.

In any account this thread is not about the ancient Roman Tradition of kneeling for Communion but rather about the fact that the Pope may have offered up the Ancient Latin Mass.

Joe Zollars

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

Joe,
I respect the traditions of the west very much.

I must admit some confusion here. I was not aware that you have been talking about the Tridentine Mass in all of your posts about the kneeling. As far as I know, standing being the norm is only in the new GIRM. I thought, as you say, rubrics of the 1962 Mass are to be maintained.

Which is done here in the Diocese of Rochester, NY.

Please forgive me for my confusion on this matter.


David

It is quite alright, in hindsight it was my posts that caused the confusion.

I shall endeavor to be more clear in the future.

Actually yes. According to Ecclesia Dei the Rubrics of the 1962 Missal are to be maintained at the ancient Latin Mass.

In any event, I have it from reliable sources that this decision by the USCCB and the ramifications from it as regards the Tridentine Mass has placed one more roadblock between Rome and the FSSPX.

Joe Zollars

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Joe, that reminds me of when the bishop of Arlington held a Mass at Christendom College. At COmmunion he stepped out side of the Altar Rail to give the communicants the body of Christ. Instead the choir went to the altar rail and kneeled.

He walked back and went up and down the altar rail and gave them communion on the tongue while they were on their knees and then he went back to the middle outside the gates of the altar rail.

The next group that went up did the same thing, going up to the altar rail and kneeled. The bishop stayed put and the priests concelebrating instead gave communion to each row as they did the same thing even with the bishop standing to give them communion in the Novus Ordo Mass style.

After the Mass he told them that the norms in America are to receive standing and that in the future they should that way instead. God Bless you traditionalists!

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!

I knew I should have gone to Christendom!!!!!!!!

Joe Zollars

Dear Joe,

But the Latin Church already admits married priests in the person of Anglican and Lutheran ministers who have left their respective communities on the very grounds of modernism for the Catholic Church.

They are allowed to keep their wives.

As for "ancient tradition," quite apart from "creepy Byzantinization," the Latin Church has always had a married parochial priesthood and its cancellation occurred late in the Church's history.

St Patrick himself was the son of a married Latin Catholic priest and there are many others.

Women priests are another issue.

I'm just wondering whether your calling married priests etc. "Byzantinization" is doing justice to the full range of Latin Church history?

And if it can be shown that standing for Communion and married priests obtained in the West for a long period of time, which it can, then what does this make of your Byzantinization argument?

Alex

I'm sorry to be rude, but I get queasy at the mere thought of priestesses. The Church has not authority to ordain women as priestesses anyway, right?

ChristTeen287

No one has suggested women be ordained priestesses.

Axios

Alex:

Married priests are not the norm in the Roman Church.

However, there are special indults. The Priests who are clerical converts from Lutheranism and Anglicanism as well as some other Protestant Denominations, recieve a special indult direct from the holy father himself who allows them to be ordained on a case by case basis.

One of these men, a very holy Priest and a good friend of mine, continuously tells me and many others that married Priests should not be the norm in the Roman Rite. The demands on a Roman Priest far exceed what a married man is capable of undertaking.

This Priest gives one very personal example of why this is so. He was called to give Extreme Unction at the very time that his wife was going through an extremely difficult childbirth and nearly died.

Also the parish can not support an entire family, they can barely support a single priest, and therefore he has to take on three jobs: that of a parish priest, spiritual director for a Catholic High School, and pastor of the newman center at a local state university. With all three of these jobs he is barely able to keep a minimum of food on the table and I have been to their home in the middle of winter. I can assure you that if the heater was on, it did not go beyond the pilate light. And I don't neccisarily live in sourthern climate.

There are several other stories involving this Priest that I don't feel I have the liberty to share with you.

Married Priests are a Byzantine Tradition. Celibate Priests are a Roman Tradition with a few exceptions in extroidinary circumstances.

In the Early Church the Holy Mass was joined with a meal known as the agape. The Church has said we should not revive this because it represents a false thinking of the nature of tradition in the Roman Rite. we have something called organic development. Through organic development, we have knelt for centuries.

Now once again, I must say that this thread was not about kneeling for Communion. If you want to discuss this, why not post in the other thread I had regarding kneeling.

Post wher you will, but since there is nill respect for the venerable traditions of the Christian West on this board, this is my last post/visit to this forum.

Christeen:

The Church does not have the authority to ordain women "priests". It is a theological impossibility, yet there are many American Bishops (from South America too) along with several Bishops from Europe (including Cardinals) who support Women's ordination. This is a cause of prayer, but we should not be too concerned. There will always be a faithful remnant.

All:

If anyone here wishes to carry on an actual fruitful discussion please contact me via email:

joe_zollars@hotmail.com

I sincerely hope to see ya'll in the Life to come, but I shall not see ya'll until then.

Joe Zollars

Axios:

Cardinal Mahoney has avowed to bring the issue of Women's ordination up to the pope. Three days after dedicating his new Cathedral he went to Dallas for a women's ordination conference.

There are numerous dissenting organizations such as call to action that also have women's ordination as their chief objective.

The Bishop of Saginaw has refuse to ordain anyone until he can ordain women.

I could give you more examples, but what would that accomplish. You insist on continuing to support the homosexual agenda despite the wise advice and fervent prayers of many on this and other boards.

I hope you come to your senses,
JOe Zollars

Joe Zollars wrote:

Mr. Zollars,

Since all you have done in the time you have spent posting on The Byzantine Forum has been to attack the Roman Catholic Church because it does not conform to your personal agenda it is no wonder that others are not all that interested in discussing these issues. I do find myself wondering why you have come to a Byzantine Forum to discuss your problems with the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps you might be happier participating in a Roman Catholic forum? There are lots of them on the internet.

As Byzantine Christians we have a great deal amount of respect for the traditions of the Latin Church. But we are not Latin Catholics so it should not be surprising that as Byzantines and other Eastern Christians our main interest would be to discuss topics about the Christian East.

I again advise you to consider spending less time attacking your wonderful Church and more time in prayer and study under the direction of a good spiritual director.

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