www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Intercultural Orthodoxy

Dear Admin:

We seem to agree on the fact that many (if not most) who are (1) born into an ethnic community that includes the Byzantine Rite and (2) later assimilate into "mainstream" North American culture will leave the Byzantine Rite. Of course, there will be exceptions, but, for the sake of argument, I think we argee that this is the general rule.

Your point, if I understand it, is that there is the possibility of those who were NOT born into an ethnic community and, therefore, NOT born into the Byzantine Rite of being evangalized into it. To this end, they will need a spiritual home wherein they will need to feel welcome and not as a "stranger in a strage Church" (to coin a phrase). Your Ruthenian Church, from what I understand have taken this beneficial approach.

So, here's my question - with regard to those chuches that ARE ethnically-based, at what point should we say, OK, "we are now no longer (for example) Ukrainian Catholics, we are are now simply 'North American Byzantine Catholics.' We hereby sever all ties with the Kyivo-Galician Patriarchate and hereby establish a jurisdictional union with his Beatitude _______, by the Grace of the Almighty God the Patriarch of (insert city) and all of North America."

One possible answer would be "when the fire of Ukrainian-ism in their hearts has gone out." This, however, only begs the question - if the fire of Ukrainian-ism has gone out, what are they still doing in a "Ukrainian" church?

As for weddings in front of an icon screen on the silver screen, I truly and from my heart admire your confidence that it is realistic to dream that it could happen. (Although, scripture does teach that through God anything is possible ).

Still, when I saw my "Big Fat Greek Wedding," at least three quarters of the theater laughed out loud when John Corbett's character was being baptized (and this was in a supposedly well-to-do and educated suburban nieghborhood). We certainly have our work cut out for us.

Yours,

kl

Dear Alex,

Are you sure this meeting never took place?

Sheesh! Kaspar, Balthasar and Melchior REALLY got around. Alaska too. I wonder how the camels got over the glaciers?

Blessings!

For the United States, I wonder about the above for several reasons.

First, the significant ascetic demands of Byzantine Christianity are, dare I say it, totally at odds with most prevailing customs and values of Americans. For example, most non-Byzantine Americans don't fast unless their doctor asks them to.

Second, there are significant demands placed on Byzantine followers to know their faith historically as well as ritualistically, something that leaves most Americans completely in the dark, since they have almost no exposure to the history of Constantinople except from a western perspective, and can only dimly relate to our rituals because of a thousand year seperate tradition.

Third, I've seen Latin Roman Catholicism succeed in terms of tolerance and inclusiveness where I have yet to see comparable within the Byzantine tradition BECAUSE it involves minimalizing and watering down the Faith in ways that are just not acceptable to Eastern Christians. For example, the first weekend of December there is a festival in Tumacacori, Arizona. The climax of it is an outdoor Mass in front of the old mission ruins (which was destroyed by attacking Apaches in the 1800s). The procession at the beginning has all groups playing their own music simultaneously as they come forward- a mariachi band, a Knights of Columbus honor guard with music, and a Yaqui Indian dance group with native instruments. Pictures are forbidden because of the Yaqui taboo on that. It is a wild intercultural event, and the Mass is celebrated in several languages. I would be at a loss to see how Byzantine tradition could accomodate such an event. Not even a Greek festival involves ethnic dancing within a Divine Liturgy.

From what I know of Orthodox successes in Alaska, however, the Russians were more sensitive to respecting existing language and customs, as long as it didn't interfere with the Faith itseff.

Greetings all,
I happened on this thread late and plenty of good and insightful comments have already been made so I have only a few thoughts.

First of all it must have been Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego cooling off in Alaska!

I have been very focused on evangelization lately and I wonder how far the Constantinopoltan tradition can be stretched in the plural society we have in North America. We have a mandate and commitment to try and bring our peoples to Christ.

We must realize that there are cultural groupings that have barely been touched by this tradition and the tradition will have to accomodate much as it did for the Alaskan natives and the Slavs before them.

How, for instance, can we possibly erect missions to African-Americans (and African-Canadians?)? Would a new chanting style be acceptable (if useful?)? Could/should we jettison the tones and use different ones if the congregation prefers? What about those mass gospel choirs that are so popular, if they want that in the liturgy must we say no? Are there whole ethnic groups we have to write off because we might not know how to reach them?

I am sorry that this question is so superficial, I am not advocating changes like this, but I have African-American friends who wouldn't be persuaded to visit an Orthodox church any more than visit a redneck bar. So if we finally reach their hearts will they turn around at the door?

I realize that most Byzantine-tradition parishes are not in the position to see beyond their mortgages and these rhetorical (even silly) questions are not realistic considerations for us right now but we are called to evangelize. We have a gift for all humanity and some day (God willing) we will be forced to confront these questions.

Michael, sinner

Dear John Two-Lungs,

Actually, I don't, but I read an article that said it never took place.

The "Orthodox Word" has an icon with this "John" sitting and speaking with St Innocent (John too has an halo and he might yet be canonized).

Behind John is not the "Three Kings" (Dr. John, you must be thinking of Puerto Rico where the Three Kings are venerated so highly! ), but the Hospitality of Abraham icon of the Holy Trinity.

It's possible, why not?

Alex

Dear Administrator,

When you said that Byzantine Christianity is much more capable and better equipped to baptize other cultures - I could not agree more!

And what you said shows a very keen insight into the history of Eastern missions and an in depth understanding of the very nature of our Eastern Church.

I wanted to compliment you on all that, but I really shouldn't, since those kind of intelligent comments are what we always expect from you!

And you never fail to deliver!

The issue is whether North America's long association with the Western Church is a stumbling-block to making Eastern Christianity truly "at home" here.

And also the points raised by Jim.

Alex