www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall "Rosaries Are an Economic Lifeline"

Thank you for posting this link.

I recently purchased a mother of pearl rosary from HCEF. I like it very much, although I should have carried it in a pouch rather than loose in my pocket. It has held up very well.

This seems like an admirable organization! Axios!

Best wishes to all!
Slava IC~XC~

Stefan-Ivan

Do most Eastern Catholics pray the Rosary?
Just Curious.
God bless,
Chaphenderson

Not the genuinely Eastern ones. Alex will certainly disagree.

I buy the olivewood beads for my rosaries and chotkis from a wonderful Catholic family in Bethlehem. Their website is www.giftscrafts-shop.com [giftscrafts-shop.com] and they are wonderful to work with.

It's sad, because they have to compete with a Muslim company that makes their website sound like they are Christian too. Interesting. When you read the website of the Muslim company, they go on about how this is sacred land because Jesus lived there 2000 years ago, etc, but they never actually claim to be Christian. They just sort of imply it, and rely upon us naive Americans to fall for it.

Tammy

Tammy, thanks for the link.

Dear Friends,

I would say the Rosary is more popular among the majority of Eastern Catholics today than the Jesus Prayer is - just an observation.

There are many EC's who have little idea of what the Jesus Prayer is or that it is a part of their tradition.

The Rosary is the same thing as the Rule of the Theotokos and it is very popular on Mt Athos, where monastics say 150 Hail Mary's and Our Father's with prostrations as well, and in Russia and Ukraine thanks to the Saint Seraphim's.

All my most recent Russian Orthodox book purchases refer to the Theotokos Rule or the Rosary and my Godson's mother just brought me back some "Orthodox prayer beads" from Kyiv - a wooden rosary that is identical to anything one would purchase in a Latin Catholic store.

The distinction between "Rosary" and Rule of the Theotokos is a . . . non-existent one, one that is made for the sake of . . . whatever . . .

Alex

Why is this so? This is just speculation, but I would say it is due to the view that 1) the Rosary is very much identified with Catholicism, so it's a way of "proving" that ECs really are Catholic, and 2) *if* the Jesus prayer is known of at all, it identified as something "monastic", just like vespers, matins, etc. and therefore not something for people in the real world.

As I've said before, I have nothing against the Rosary as a private and/or communal devotion in the West, or as private devotion in the East. I draw the line at turning the recitation of the Rosary into a communal event in the East. IHMO this is done, in addition to comment 1) above, to fill an imagined 'gap' in the East (along the lines of devoting the month of May to the Theotokos). We imagine shortcomings and look to the West to fill this need instead of looking at our own heritage. This all hearkens back to comments I made in a different thread: the ECs do not know who and what they are. Identity varies at all levels: Church, eparchy, parish, individual. The Eastern Catholic Churches will be in a precarious position until they learn about themselves and truly establish their identities.

Sorry if this comes across as a rant against the Rosary, this was not my intention. If I have offended, please forgive.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

I tend to agree. I have nothing against the rosary, either. But it was and is a Latin devotion. I know, I know, Alexander the Great had 150 rocks arranged in a circle in his garden. One day Alexander and his assistant, Murray, were walking through the garden. When Murray tripped over one of the rocks, Alexander said, "well, Murray!" In an ancient, now unknown, Carpathian dialect, "w" was pronounced as "h" meaning what Alexander said sounded like "hell." Of course "Murray" is close enough to the name "Mary" that what Alexander actually said was "hail Mary." There you have it - a circle, 150 rocks (beads), and the phrase "hail Mary." It was a rosary. Now if you believe any of this, you will believe anything. So much for creative history. The rosary was, is, and will remain a Latin devotion supposedly originated by St. Dominic. Say it if you want. It's a perfectly valid devotion. Just don't believe all the hype that comes from its more enthusiastic devotees. And don't replace valid, historic Eastern devotions with it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think you hit the nail on the head... for one hundred years Eastern Rite Catholics were made to adopt Latinizations to prove they were truly Catholic. Some churches were built without iconostases, and had statues and Stations of the Cross on the walls.

Don't get me wrong, I love the rosary and encourage ALL Catholics to pray it often... it's an extremely powerful prayer and weapon against the evil one. But we shouldn't neglect our own powerful and beautiful Jesus Prayer either.

Personally, I have a hard time praying the rosary... too much to think about. The Jesus Prayer, for me, is much easier.

God bless,

Karen

Dear Karen,

As confirmed by Korolovsky* very few Latinizations were forced upon the Eastern Catholics - they addopted them freely.

This stems from trying to prove "Catholicity". The Latin Rite was believed to be the only *real* Catholic rite, whereas the Orthodox Curches were considered schismatic, heretical. That left (leaves?) ECs in a difficult position. In the beginning of the Unia the ECs were truly 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'. But how would people react to being told that their heritage was 'wrong' and the ways of the Latins were the 'best'? Clergy were trained in Western institutions or Western-influenced institutions. What do you think their view of the East was upon completing their studies? At the Greek College in Rome the Divine Liturgy was permitted only a few times a year - the Mass was served on other days.

The result, IMHO, is much more disastrous than if the ECs were forced to accept Latinizations. The ECs chose, on theor own, to borrow from the Latins , thus making these elements 'theirs'. This makes the return to traditions complicated.

God willing, with time and prayer we will correct the errors of the past.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

* I'm sorry I can't provide a citation at the moment as someone has borrowed my book. I'll do so as soon as I can, unless someone else beats me to it.

So very true. We have met the enemy, and it is us.

Dear Friends,

First of all, if the Rosary is purely a Latin devotion - then this contradicts the experience of Orthodoxy with it, especially in Orthodox Russia, where this devotion was popular especially throughout the Soviet period as a devotion practiced by St Seraphim of Sarov.

I once rejected the rosary because I thought it was a Latin devotion. I've learned otherwise since that time when I was surrounded by ill-informed EC "Orthodox in communion with Rome" types who created artificial distinctions where none existed.

So, this is a democracy, but the argument that it was a purely Latin devotion is just not in keeping with the historic experience of Orthodoxy.

It is very true that not only ECers but also Orthodox in the 17th and 18th centuries adopted a number of Western devotions during the so-called "Kyivan Baroque" period.

If the ECers adopted those devotions because they wanted to "prove" they were Catholics, what was the reason the Orthodox adopted them? The same? I don't think so.

Those devotions were popular because they were appealing - plain and simple, an argument also developed by Myron Fedoriw in his work on Church music.

Rather than try to blame Latinization or whatever, why can't we just admit that it is possible for members of one Church to adopt something used by members of another simply because it appeals to them? Why is that?

St Nicodemos Aghioritis translated many Western devotional works and adapted them for Orthodox readership - including, yes, Loyola's Spiritual Exercises.

"Unseen Warfare" - remember that book? Yes, it was redone by St Theophane the Recluse - but who, ultimately, was its author? An Italian priest, my friends!

So I'm no longer in the mood to argue the Eastern roots of the Rosary etc.

I'm in the mood to challenge our own Eastern insecurity that sees in any popular devotion a threat to our identity simply because it a) originated in the West or b) is popular in the West.

And Charles' parody about Alexander the Great is simply that - the story about the Rule of the Theotokos comes from ST Seraphim of Sarov and a long Eastern tradition. We can dismiss it, but I don't think we should make fun of it.

There are other angles here and the EC Church in Ukraine and elsewhere today has Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament with monstrances etc. NOT because they need to prove they're Catholics but perhaps because they just LIKE those devotions.

And also because it is more important to those people across the pond to prove they're not Russian Orthodox either.

Together with St Seraphim of Sarov, St Dmitri of Rostov and St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, I say the Rosary/Rule of the Theotokos and affirm that it is an Eastern rule that everyone can fulfill,

Alex

What I am saying is that good St. Seraphim, whom I admire greatly, probably never saw a set of Latin rosary beads in his life. He probably also never said the western "Hail Mary" with the addition, "Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners at the hour of our death." What's with Latins, anyway. The Angelic Salutation, the Creed. Is nothing that is divinely inspired or revealed complete without a Latin addition to it? Go figure.

I have to agree. when May rolls around, and I deign to go to the Latin parish for Saturday evening Mass, invariably, they will be doing the Rosary thingy, complete with someone bawling out the Hail Mary into the microphone. Sts. Peter and Paul is a Gothic type church, and the acoustics, well you can imagine. any whatever,let the Latins do their Rosary, I just go in, do my Orthodox prayers, then sit there acting like I have no idea what is going on, until time for Mass, always hoping in vain that the priest will do Eucharisitc prayer lV, which has some allusions to the Epiclesis. I do the Jesus Prayer, but I do confess that I have, and still do, the "pray for us sinners...."when it comes to the Hail Mary , especially when I hear a fire engine or ambulance (must be the Irish coming out in me) howling by. I personally see nothing wrong with an EC doing that if he/she chooses to do so, but it should not be the norm, no more than reciting the Rosary should be done in a public situation inside of an Eastern church.
Much Love,
Jonn