www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Eastern Christians and the War Between the States?????

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

I know. Now let us turn to another great topic. The evil and wrongheadedness of the American Revolt in 1776.

Had I been alive in 1776 I would probably have been a Tory.

Dan L

I certainly think slavery is a very evil thing and think that perhaps Lincoln was right when he considered that perhaps the Civil War was God's judgment on this nation for slavery; however, I don't see how any Catholic could say much in favor of General Sherman. His brutal actions against civilians in his march through Georgia violate all that the Catholic Church teaches about just war and the treatment of civilians. Also, as a resident of the Shenandoah Valley, I have nothing good to say of Gen. Philip Sheridan, who did similarly bad things in the Valley, though I don't believe his soldiers generally raped any women...he is the guy who later said "the only good Indian is a dead Indian"!

I also would like to defend the characters of Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. Both were serious and committed Christians. Davis attended Catholic school as a child and considered becoming Catholic but did not. He was a rather high church Anglican and was admired by Pope Pius IX, who sent him a rosary and a crown of thorns that the Pope had made himself while Davis was imprisoned by Federal troops in Ft. Monroe, Virginia. Robert E. Lee was an evangelical Episcopalian who had a deep prayer life and committment to Jesus Christ. He abhorred slavery and freed all his slaves. He also opposed seccession and was offered command of the Union armies by Lincoln but refused on the grounds that he could never raise the sword against his native state of Virginia. (To a Virginian, he is right up there with Washington, Jefferson, Patrick Henry, James Madison, and all the rest.) It was hard for him to take this stance, as his father Lighthorse Harry Lee was a noted Revolutionary War general and R.E. Lee was married to the granddaughter of Martha Washington (and thus the stepgranddaughter of the Father of our country.) Lee has been admired for his sterling Christian character even by people who think he was on the "wrong side."

As to the alleged wrongness of the American Revolution, well, I suppose if you believe in the "Divine Right of Kings", yes, but I don't buy that. I believe government derives its powers from the just consent of the governed and if a government is oppressive, the people have the right to change it. But even if I did believe that the colonists should have stayed loyal to the King as the lawful authority constituted by God, the fact is that George III was not the lawful King of England. Neither was William & Mary, Anne, or the first 2 Georges, either! Don't forget that James II was deposed and replaced by his Protestant daughter Mary and her husband William only because he was a Catholic. At the deaths of Mary and her successor and sister Anne without heirs, their Catholic half-brother ("the Old Pretender") was the lawful King, but because he was Catholic, he was passed over for George I of the House of Hanover in Germany, a grandson of Elizabeth, daughter of James I, but in no way the lawful King and a man who couldn't even speak English! Refusing to accept the House of Hanover wasn't just a Catholic thing, either, the Scots resented the House of Stuart being set aside and rebelled, also, there was a group of principled high-church Anglicans who felt that since they had sworn allegiance to James II, they could not recognize any other sovereign. They were called the "non-jurors" and the holy and devout Thomas Ken, was perhaps their best exemplar.

I agree with the person who had high praise for the Methodists. John Wesley was certainly a saintly man and very sacramental in his theology. He was one of the few Protestants of his day who was not anti-Catholic.

Martha, American by birth, Virginian by the grace of God!

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

To add to Deacon El's recollection:

For the most part the Byzantine army was ineffectual because they showed up 13 days later than everyone else, thought the day started at sundown, and, when stressed, were not ashamed to change allegience.

Once, they were ordered to march on New Years and they didn't show up until September!

They tended not to side with the North or the South but curiously preferred the East.

Whenever, their general yelled fire, they couldn't decide whether to kneel or stand and so often ended up shooting each other. Fortunately the officers survived as they would choose this moment for a deep prostration.

They were however, masters of tactical trickery.

There are no photographs or even pictorial representations of this secret army as, wherever they went, they constructed a wall between the observers and the participants.

Whenever they showed up, there was so much smoke in the air, no one could see anything.

Many were known to leave early.

But their most famous maneuver:

From a distance, the enemy, seeing them crossing themselves backwards thought they must be retreating...


El, we missed you this past Sunday...

John

Hmmm. This thread's development must be the result of the heat-wave in the East.

While it's true that there was the basic issue of Federalism versus States' Rights, the focus was on the ability of one person to direct the life of another, whether through slavery or indentured servitude (of Europeans).

It's true that many European-Americans in the north didn't particularly have a concern about African-Americans, but they felt that the "country" was best represented by a Federal State that could stand up to the dynastic European monarchies which they hated from the depths of their hearts since they or their parents had been direct victims of state-sponsored oppression.

Although born in Massachusetts, and a dyed-in-the-wool Bostonian --- and damn proud of it! -- I have ancestral roots in Pennsylvania and my Great-Great Grandfather fought at Antietam and Sharpsburg. (He died in Philadelphia from wounds a year after the war. I wonder if I should ask for 'reparations' as some currently suggest?)

I've lived in Virginia for more than 25 years, and have had the opportunity to look at the Virginians of that time. I'm not quite so convinced about Jefferson Davis, but I can assure you that I have never found a more moral man than Robert E. Lee. His writings and his behavior show clearly that he was a man of principle -- his moral conclusions guided his behavior. Is this not the ultimate definition of a good Christian? He examined his conscience, came to a conclusion, and followed his conscience. What a model!!

As for "our peoples", I can't say much about the Slavs since I think that there were really very few here at the time. My people (on my mother's side), the Greeks, were here, but in very small numbers. Although I am sure that some were involved in the hostilities, but I suspect that most were just trying to survive as small merchants or as commissaries of supplies. I find it absolutely remarkable, however, that the first Treasurer of the Confederacy was Jewish and from South Carolina. It was, of course, the constant desire of ALL immigrants to be considered American and not just 'some damned foreigner'.

[I note that many non-European citizens and green-card residents of the US have filled out the most recent census forms as: "white". It's the same desire: "I consider myself American and will designate myself as American in every way possible". Their incredible love of this country and their absolute desire to be identified with the United States should shame the rest of us Euro-Americans perforce of their zeal. It is truly humbling and should serve as a lesson to us all in understanding the wonderful gift that has been given to us to be Americans living in freedom and self-determination. My maternal grandparents were saints for giving me this gift.]

Blessings, y'all!!

not really. Again, Lincoln was the friend of democracy.