www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News New Russian Catholic parish being created

Perhaps I shouldn't have waxed whimsical, and mentioned the g-t, but the pairing of comments on the blog made me LOL recalling some earlier times here (when I was lurking). I do not wish in anyway to suggest that I consider a convert to the BCC as anything other than a brother or sister, even if we may disagree about some things.

And it is thus, when a parish of our church suffers through a split, that I feel it as terribly unfortunate. I wish we could learn something from it and avoid such problems in the future. It is a shameful thing: it speaks to a lack of love, and this lack is more disgraceful, literally, than any aberration in church furnishing, liturigical practice, chant, etc.

--Joe Thur wrote: I will be surprised if Pittsburgh actually takes the lead during this century and promulgates something new before the other eparchies and actually puts it into practice in all its parishes. It will take a 'leader' to rally the troops. Who will that leader be? I haven't a clue.--

Bishop Pataki is now head of the metropolitan liturgical commission. The cathedral parish is filled with rumors that at the last commission meeting he made decisions on all the remaining issues and ordered the new liturgy books to be printed. They have all the new ways of doing everything and the new music that no one can sing.

--Joe Thur wrote: So, I ask: Can leadership mandate anything this time around with a straight face?--

Bishop Pataki is very good at mandating things and forcing people to obey his mandates.

Frank,

Please do take a look at our Plain Chant book written by Andrew Sokol and published by the late Bishop Basil Takach in 1946. Those many notes you speak about have been around in an American text for over 50+ years.

In defense of the new music (maybe new to the Pittsburgh cathedral like so many other things), I compared an example of its Tone 7 Prokeimenon and Alleluia to the Sokol (1946) edition (cf. page 36) and found it was quite faithful - being that Sokol's version follows the March 1906 Prostopinije of Uzhorod (cf. page 37). The "new" Tone 7 was also dropped a few notes for ease of singing it seems. Heaven forbid if we attempted to sing the actual notes that our late Bishop Takach approved and is written in our beloved Prostopinije!

I also compared another Alleluia - Tone 1 from the new music to the Prostopinije (cf. page 4) and found them to be identical (horror of horrors!). Is there a problem with singing what is basically our chant? The Alleluia (Greek word for the Hebrew Hallejuiah) is a very ancient and important word and hymn. It shouldn't be rushed as if we really didn't care about introducing the Gospel. I would hate to think that the attitude being take for preparing oneself for hearing the Gospel should be like fast-food (throw it out the window) or frozen-food (zap it).

So, I really don't know what the problem is for the people in our Pittsburgh cathedral. We've been singing this way for over fifty years. I grew up with cantors singing from the blue liturgy Sokol book - they even gave me a copy back in 1985. Where has Pittsburgh been all these years? Why has the gray pew book become so authoritative? Why would you folks hate your own music so much? I would hate to think that it is because of pride or ego or just plain ignorance of one's own chant. But if the authoritative text was the gray pew book (I'm familiar with the green one), then one can only guess.

My vote goes for the new music since it isn't really "new" anyway, but a resuscitation of what has been around in this country for years. Thanks be to God for having someone interested enough to finally give us an English edition of our proper chant, a chant many of us learned by not using "pew" books.

Cantor Joe Thur

--Joe Thur wrote: Please do take a look at our Plain Chant book written by Andrew Sokol and published by the late Bishop Basil Takach in 1946. Those many notes you speak about have been around in an American text for over 50+ years.--

I am well aware that such music existed in the Boksaj editions. I am also well aware that no one sings the tones like that. After well over a year of using this new junk in the cathedral no one can manage to sing it. Is it going to be the cantor�s job to sing everything for us?

Dave, don't get your knickers in a knot. If they are Byzantine Catholics, then great. But I assume they were not members of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, but of the Ruthenian Church which they willingly chose to join. I doubt if they were deceived about what kind of Church they were joining. If they found it unsatisfactory with anyone except Father Chrysostom, then perhaps what they were really joining was not the Ruthenian Catholic Church but the "Church of Father Chrysostom Frank" -- and so they should be free to follow him wherever he goes.

Frank,

Start learning so you can all sing together and give glory to God. My pre-teen schola members can sing it with no problem. I'm beginning to sense that it isn't about the music. The fact that you call our chant "junk" really tells the story.

This is really getting of the topic of the thread ...

Cantor Joe Thur

--Joe Thur wrote: Start learning so you can all sing together and give glory to God. My pre-teen schola members can sing it with no problem. I'm beginning to sense that it isn't about the music. The fact that you call our chant "junk" really tells the story.--


The cathedral parish used to raise the roof when Metropolitan Judson was the pastor and Fred Petro the cantor. We know how to sing quite well when the music is singable.

It is not our chant that is �junk�. It is the new arrangements of our chant that is �junk�. They just don�t work and are not singable.

Frank,

Can't help you there.

God bless!
Joe

--Joe Thur wrote: Frank, Can't help you there. God bless! Joe--

Hopefully the petition drive has gotten enough signatures to make the Archbishop listen and actually do something about the situation. We need music we can actually and a cantor we can sing with.

Not so very long ago someone mentioned (on this web site) that in the entire Pittsburgh Metropolia there are no more than a scant handful of parishes where the full Divine Liturgy mandated by the Holy See about 60 years ago is available (presumably in English). That could have something to do with the thinking of those who prefer to worship elsewhere. Incognitus

This thread has gotten way off topic, IMO, when it gets to discussing new music for the Metropolia. Could be a great thread but does it belong on this thread?

Are you admitting that these people might be Byzantine Catholics after all?

I guess you still feel that no tears need to be shed over their loss, however...after all, they never really were part of "our people," anyway, right?

What was the attraction for these people? Was it a cultural identity from Central and Eastern Europe? Did they have memories of pieroghis and other ethnic foods? (I admit I love these myself, but I digress.) No, they were attracted to a vibrant and living faith that embraced the fullness of Byzantine tradition. These people believed what Vatican II called for--a return to authentic Byzantine tradition and embraced what was happening at this parish. In short, if you build it, they will come.

David Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

You are so right!

Michael

One can obtain quite decent frozen pirogies from Germany these days - including delicious cherry pirogies (just watch out for the occasional stone - or as someone once said, "if life is a bowl of cherries, what I am doing in the pits?"). That is, I cheerfully agree, of no relevance to the Russian Catholic parish in Denver, but neither is the interminable discussion of prostopinije. Besides, pirogies are nourishing. Incognitus

Getting somewhat back on topic: St. Elizabeth's being a bi-ritual parish, will they have a temporary iconostasis or maybe they will have a separate chapel??

I know of bi-ritual priests who serve in Byzantine and Roman parishes, but I believe each parish is a separate church building. I'm just curious how it will develop.

In Christ,
Anthony

What intrigues me is their choice of "Russian", when there are no Russians involved.

Why not "Albanian"?

Why not "Moldovan" Byzantine Catholic Church?

Methinks it's because there are no Russian-Russians around to object when others usurp their identity. And it's just so "American" to name anything what you want to - - even if it involves stealing from another's identity.

And that way, in this case, the Western folks can "play Byzantine" even though there is already a Byzantine eparch with jurisdiction. With all due respect, and with best wishes for the intentions of the priest and the Latin bishop, how is this different from the vagantes of the flake jurisdictions getting all dressed up and assuming titles for themselves and flouting the pastoral responsibilities and jurisdiction of the legitimate Byzantine Eparch? "Let's call ourselves RUSSIANS, and then we can do what we want, because 'veee arrr ROSSSSHHUN'".

And there ain't a Russian within an hour's plane ride.

If the RC Bishop of Denver had had his wits about him, and were truly knowledgeable about things Eastern and Byzantine, he would have called the parish Mother Teresa AMERICAN Byzantine Catholic Church, (or for the panties in a twist "after a Saint" crowd: "St. Elizabeth Seton American Byzantine Catholic Church")

But, I wonder how many would join if it were truly "Byzantine-according-to-the-Typikon", but decidedly English-speaking and NOT ethnically identified. Where no one could say: "they're destroying our tradition!!" or "you XYZ-ites don't really belong here". {I honestly think that that was the intent of the Ruthenian church when it decided to tear up the passport and remain in America.} The problem is: there appear to be many who are incapable of disambiguating the fruits of legitimate Byzantine spirituality from legitimate ethno-cultural practices. And they demand full-Typikon liturgical life along with a mandatory "anything but American" cultural identity.

Actually I hope some itinerant Russian in Denver sues for copyright infringement on the "Russian" designation. And I hope he gets a lot of vodka. Top shelf.

Blessings!