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This is a sad story. If these are the fruits of the so-called "conversion of Russia"...

Source: http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=832

Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen,

This is just a sad sign of these troubled and apostate times...

Obviously, these young people think that paganism is somehow 'cool' and more their Russian roots than Christianity!

Don't be shocked, in the past few years I have heard of neopagans in Greece too! Again, I suppose thinking that their ancient roots of twelve gods is more 'cool' than their ancient Christian roots.

If one studies history from a religious perspective, one might surmise that the pagan gods with their oracles were nothing more than demonic deities. So, while on the one hand I might think that these persons are espousing nonsense, on the other hand, they are opening themselves up to the evil one, just as anyone who dabbles in the occult does! This would explain the desecrations they committed. I would dare say that they are somewhat akin to satan worshippers and their acts of desecration in this country.

May God have mercy on us all!

With much love in Christ,
Alice

These type of pre-Christian (988) sects have existed for many years both in Ukraine and even in the North American Ukrainian diaspora community. They even have a summer resort in New York's Catskill mountains. Also, if I'm not mistaken, their 'Sun god' symbol is on the cover of each and every volume of the Ukrainian Encyclopedia.

Their belief is that Kyiv-Rus (now Ukraine) was a dominant power (world leader) during the centuries leading up to it's adoption of Christianity in 988. They blame the adoption of Christianity as a state religion for the slow demise of their culture, peoples, and nation. The introduction of 'foreign Christianity' brought with it the exterior domination of the theism of Ukrainians by Greeks, Russians, Poles, Italians, etc....

They believe that their gods (ie: Perun, etc...) are punishing them for having destroyed all of their pagan idols just prior to the baptism of Kyiv-Rus by Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great in 988.

The 'devine' punishment for turning their backs on THE pagan gods of Kyiv-Rus (Ukraine) include, the devastation of the 13th century Mongol invasions, the introduction of the brutal feudal lord systems, communism, plagues, the great famine, and so forth...

One of their strong beliefs is that Christianity ligitimized the feudal lord systems in their lands, both in the Eastern (Czarist Russian Empire) and Western (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth then Austro-Hungarian Empire) Ukrainian lands.

In Western Ukraine, the 'Panstchyna' feudal lord system first introduced by the 'foreign Christian' Poles brough with it a large immigration of Jews fleeing persecution in Western Europe. These 'foreign Jews' greatly helped the Poles exploit the peasants who were often seen as nothing more than commodities to be traded.

The Ukrainian pagan worshipers believe that only through the reintroduction of their gods into Ukrainian society will the nation be independant, strong, and great again.

The Ukrainian pagans have gone on many expeditions in and around the Dnipro (main river through Ukraine and Kyiv) to find the original idols which were ordered thrown into the waters by Grand Prince Volodymyr the Great. The pagans believe that every time they locate one (or a relic) their nation is closer to it's once turn of the millennium glorious past.

It is clearly not a multicultural / pluralistic philosophy, but then again neither was Kyiv-Rus.

I have never known the Ukrainian pagans to be very anti-Christian (or anti-Jewish). They are more about being 'pre988-autocephaltheists' (is that a real word ? oh well it never stopped me before) for the Ukrainian nation. These religion(s) do reinforce the idea that the glorious past of Kyiv is centered around Rus national theism.

The acts of vandalism in Russia seem to be extreme and do not reflect the immediate past history of the pagans in Ukraine or in the diaspora. But they do reflect a yearning of some people to return to a bigone millennium when things SEEMED 'better'. We must keep in mind that at this time there is a lot of disorder, corruption, poverty, sickness, and a general feeling of loss of power and prestige for the peoples of the former USSR.

About a generation ago, we had a 25 year old Ms X apply to our Ukie youth organization in Montreal. On the application she had put 'Roun Vira' as her religion, which of course is one of the main Ukie pagan sects. She was devoted and very serious about it.

Of course this set of a big debate in the organization because our motto was 'God & Ukraine' and we always assumed it reflected our Christian national (anti-communist & anti Russian Imperialist) ideals. It was always assumed that the God was Jesus Christ and he was Catholic and/or Orthodox, and even maybe a Baptist (they do have Ukie North American aherants) or even Jewish (now wouldn't that be a shocker ) - but a pagan like in the old old old days .

Believe it or not there was serious debate about this issue for a few months. In fact, 'Debate' would be an understatement. Bazar would be a better word to describe the atmosphere. During one of the meetings we had some parents praying on their rosaries the whole time, while the university students were trying to be open minded, and the historians / politicians simultaneously telling us we must accept them as one of the 'true' original religions of Ukraine, and etc....(I think you get the picture). I'm happy to say that in the end Jesus Christ won. . We concluded that the God in our motto was Jesus Christ.

Hritzko

BTW: There was no Russia in 988. There was Rus (Ruthenia) with it's capital of Kyiv, hence the term Kyiv-Rus. The 'Czardom of Muskovy' with it's capital of Muscow only adopted the name Rossyia (Russia) in the 18th century and was not directly involved in the adoption of Christianity in 988.

A few years ago, I was really curious about the Ukrainian "Rudna Vira" and wound up doing a bit of online searching. There was one website I'll never forget, since it very adamantly maintained that the word "Pravoslavni" was a pre-Christian, pagan title and that they (the Run Vira) are the REAL Pravoslavni! Even the pagans in Ukraine are in on the debate over who are the true Orthodox leaders for Ukraine.

Dave

When I hear about the "return" of paganism, and see people complaining about it as a sign of the times, I go back to thinking what CS Lewis said on the topic.

I will first quote a letter he wrote to Blessed Don Giobanni Calabria:

"Fere auserim dicere, 'Primo faciamus juniores bonos Paganos et postea faciamus Christianos.'"

(I would say sare, "First let us make our youth good pagans, and then afterwards Christians." Latin Letter 26 to Blessed Dom Giovanni)

Now why does he say this? He sees the pagans as inherently possessing the preparations for the Gospel in their religions. They have a moral code, a belief in the supernatural. Things which are far removed in our day and time, and for those who have abandoned Christianity to secularism, he sees that this is the first step to re-converting them to Christianity.

In another letter, he wrote, "'Post-Christian man' is not the sme as 'pre-Christian man'. He is as far removed as a virgin is from widow: there is nothing in common except want of a spouse: but there is a great difference between a spouse-to-come and a spouse lost." (Latin Letter 23 to Blessed Dom Giovanni)

Thus, the post-Christian secular society is not virgin or pure, in a way he saw the pagan societies (he is not saying, of course, all they said and did were good). But, from that same letter, about modern man, "For they neglect not only the law of Christ but even the Law of Nature as known by the Pagans. For now they do not blush at adultery, treachery, perjury, theft and other crimes which I will not say Christian Doctors, but the Pagans and the Barbarians have themselves denounced." (Latin Letter 23 to Dom Giovanni).

Lewis sees the preparation for the Gospel needs to be reseeded into our culture before the Gospel can take root again. It is in this he was not too concerned with the modern pagan revivals, but saw potential in it.

Perhaps it is something we should consider as well.

Dear Friends,

It is a fact that there are many Jewish converts to Russian Orthodoxy in Russia (I met many at my friend's priestly ordination here last year as well).

Not only neo-pagans, but also Russian Orthodox political chauvinists have been constantly harping on this . . . Some have suggested a separate church for the Russian Orthodox Jewish converts!

I wonder to what extent this anti-semitism drives the neo-paganism?

In addition, there are also satanic sects, and the UOC-MP website once carried pictures of two "satanic altars" found on hills near Kyiv . . .

Lord Jesus, deliver us from every evil . . .

Alex

I have to say that it's unfortunate that the Christians have adopted Pagan practices such as having a Christmas tree (I don't know what it symbolizes) with ornaments (ornaments usually are used for witchry or witchcrafts), etc.

Even PYSANKY is a pagan symbol representing new life.

I can't think of anything else that's pagan. I really have to wonder if Dec. 25th date for Christmas is a pagan date?

So, we can't complain of pagans if we're hypocrites of practicing them like I said above. We have to do what we can to keep spreading the Gospel of Christ WITHOUT FIGHTING among ourselves (Catholic-Orthodox sibling rivalry)...that goes to what I've said about the Islam on another post.

I guess there's nothing more urgent than spreading the Gospel! It's no wonder why John Paul II have tirelessly repeated over and over for us to EVANGELIZE.

Please fill me in on what I said.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SP Dundas,

Actually, it was Martin Luther who Christianized the Christmas Tree that symbolizes the Tree in the Garden of Eden from which Adam ate the apple

(The ornaments represent the fruit of this tree).

It also represents the Tree of new Life through Christ's Incarnation and birth.

It is a Germanic and now North American tradition (the Ukrainian Patriarch, Lubomyr Husar, recently asked Ukrainians not to have Christmas trees for environmental reasons and also because it "isn't our tradition").

It was ultimately a way to counter the cult of the Norse god of the oak-tree "Wodin" and Serbian Orthodox to this day have their "Baniak" or cut piece of oak that is blessed in Church.

The name "Wednesday" is a corruption of the original name for this day "Wodin's Day."

St Stephen of Perm, the Orthodox missionary to the north, cut down a pagan tree and then used the trunk as an altar on which to serve the Divine Liturgy.

There is nothing wrong with Christianizing non-Christian cultural and even religious practices.

The pagan Egyptians revered the "Ankh" which is a form of the cross (Assyrians wore crosses, as we know them, around their necks 3,000 years before Christ).

Greek missionaries simply told the Egyptians that the Ankh they were wearing was the symbol of the Lord they were preaching and thousands of Egyptians were helped to come to Christ.

To this day, the Ankh in Christian heraldry is known as the "Ansate Cross."

The icon corner is based on a pagan practice and there is a book, unfortunately only in Ukrainian, entitled "Pre-Christian beliefs of the Ukrainian people" by Met. Ilarion Ohienko where there is a comprehensive discussion of how pagan practices were Christianized in E. Europe.

Celtic missionaries were famous for "saining" or blessing pagan practices too.

The neo-paganism in Russia is, I believe, an extreme form of anti-semitism where anything that is Orthodox Christian is branded as "Jewish."

Alex

Yes, Alex is right. Many missionaries "Christianize" pagan practices. Ancient peoples believe in water sprites. Does that mean we can't baptize using water? Yes, the decorated egg does symbolize eternal life. (something living emerges from a cold, white object.) My understanding of the Christmas tree is Christ's words to His disciples: "I am the vine, you are the branches".

The pagan priest Melchizadek offered bread and wine. Does that mean we cannot offer bread and wine in the Liturgy?

Yes, the date, Dec. 25th was a pagan feast. There are studies that suggest that Christ was probably born in the Spring time. (Because Mary and Joseph wouldn't have travelled in the rainy season, and shepards wouldn't have been out watching their flocks. Ok). There is an ancient tradition that He died and was born on the same date, April 9th.

Dear Mike,

Excellent!

In the old English calendar, April 3rd was given as the actual date of Christ's Resurrection (over and above the yearly calculation).

There were also dates given as actual "historical" dates for various feasts - again apart from the liturgical calendar date.

In the case of the early Church's choice for a place of worship, the pagan temples were spurned NOT because they hearkened to paganism, but because their structure was awkward and they were small in construction.

Instead, the Roman "cathedrals" or palaces of justice were chosen as the basis of the Christian Basilica/Cathedral.

Even the iconostasis was originally a small demarcation where the judges sat on the thrones of Roman imperial justice (Orthodox still refer to altars as "thrones!")

And the double-looped chains Orthodox priests and bishops wear is a copy of the chains of office Roman judges wore - the double loop signified their double responsibility as civil servants.

And even the word "Liturgy" comes from the idea of public service performed by Roman civil servants on behalf of the empire/community.

Alex

Dear Hritzko,

Unfortunately, not only any Russia, but also, sorry to say, so called Kyiv Rus did not exist in 988 at all! The term � Kyiv Rus� was simply made up by pro-Communist Soviet historians, influenced by the Stalin �patriotic� propaganda that insisted on all Slavonic unity allegedly existed in the past.

Actually, there were a lot of ancient Slav princedoms that hardly recognized one another and, of course, had no supreme governmental authority among them. The word �Rus� itself has no connection with Kyiv because, in fact, it originated in Scandinavia. The Vikings, who were actual �Rus� or �rowers�, brought this name in Novgorod Slav lands in the North. As for the town of Kyiv (Kuyabia), it was just a frontier fortress of the Jewish Khazar kingdom in the South. The Viking Duce Oleg (Helg) came down from Novgorod, conquered the fortress, and made its half-Slav (�Polyane�) population pay taxes not to the Jewish-Khazar, but to the new masters.

In 988 this Viking-Slav conglomerate both in Kyiv in Novgorod in the reign of Duce Waldamar (or Vladimir in Slavonic manner) was converted in Christianity. The Byzantine (Roman) Emperor was regarded as the nominal ruler of the whole Eastern Christendom, but among themselves newly baptized Rus lands did not have actual common authorities and numerous Slav princedoms (Viking component was gradually dissolved) were practically independent. Later on the name Rus was corrupted in Byzantine chronicles into Ros following the mysterious northern people �Ros� mentioned in the Greek Bible. Hence the two variants Rossia and Russia denoting the Moscow princedom that was able to drive the Mongols and Tartars out and unite a considerable part of Slav lands into Great Russia after the both Mongol and Byzantine empires had fallen. A certain while later the Kyiv territory, so called Minor Russia, was subordinate to the Russian Czar up to the 1900s.

Certainly, it is not true that �The 'Czardom of Muskovy' with it's capital of Muscow only adopted the name Rossyia (Russia) in the 18th century�. Everybody knows that it happened much earlier in the 15th century. In the 18th cent. Russia simply proclaimed herself Empire. You can also see that your statement that Russia �was not directly involved in the adoption of Christianity in 988� can be safely applied not only to Russia, but also to the Ukraine, Ruthenia etc. None of them really existed in the time of Slav antiquities! I completely realize that today�s Ukraine nationalistic propaganda would disagree with this historical fact, but it is not a point to discuss.

Valerius

Dear Alex--

Actually, the idea of a separate church for the Russian Orthodox Jewish converts used to be suggested not by so called �Russian Orthodox political chauvinists�, but by late father Alexander Men. He was a Jewish convert himself and hoped that in this way other baptized Jews would be able to save their national identity within the Christianity. I respect father Alexander but this idea seems to be entirely foreign to the Gospel of the Christ in Whom there is neither Greek nor a Jew.

Valerius

Dear Valerius,

Vozdrastviye!

Yes, I revere the Holy Father Alexander Men very much and admire him for his ability to preach the Gospel to one and all, including his ability to adapt it for his Jewish confreres!

In actual fact, while I agree with you about a separate Church for Orthodox Christian Jewish converts, there is nothing wrong with their having their own Judaic "Rite."

As a matter of fact, there is a Hebrew Catholic Association here in North America and the Hebrew Catholics have permission from the Catholic Church to bring in a number of Jewish rites into their celebration of the Divine Liturgy - they also, of course, celebrate many Jewish traditions privately in their homes, including Jewish holidays.

Members of this group have even thought about asking Rome to allow them a patriarchate, like the one the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church would like (that the Russian Orthodox press is so enthusiastic about ).

Your comments about our common East Slavic history are, of course, matters for discussion and not here.

There are a number of theories concerning our historic roots.

And, unfortunately, what exists in Ukraine AND Russia is a combative situation between TWO propagandist, nationalistic viewpoints.

Modern states did not exist as we know them in those times, only sovereign monarchs etc.

I am personally a monarchist and I support a form of monarchy for Russia (and have worked with Russian monarchists toward this end in the past).

I also support this for Ukraine. The United States does not need a king, as it is already very imperialistic .

Say hello to all our Russian friends!

Alex

Early 11th century French historical chronicles make clear reference to 'Rus' with it's center of Kyiv (Hence the name Kyiv-Rus) as being the birthplace of 'Anne La reine de France' (Anne Queen of France). Of course the reference is to 'Anna Yaroslava', grandaughter of Volodymyr the Great of Kyiv-Rus in 988. I saw her centuries old burial place / marker in France and it said she was born in Kyiv Rus.

Question: Were these French Communists in the early 11th century who made up the fact that she was from Kyiv Rus ?

That is very interesting.

Question: Could you please explain how the famous cartographer 'Beauplan' managed to err on all of his maps of Eastern Europe when he drew them in the 17 the century.

He refers to what is now Ukraine (and the most southern part of Belarus) as the land of the Ruthenians (Latin for Rusyny). The area which is now known as the most Western part of the Russian Federation is indicated as MUSCOVY and the land of the 'Moskali'. Remember, his vast staff of professionals drew these maps in the 17th century.

You can type the words 'Beauplan Map' on any search engine to get more information, or you could visit Harvard University's archives which has copies of many of these century old documents.

I look forward to your reply.

Hritzko

Dear Dave,

Although I have not seen the site, your comments would be very congruent with my previous post. They do in fact believe that theirs is the 'true faith' (Pravoslavni) of the Rus peoples.

Their religion has died down in recent years. Perhaps the 'Sun' god would enjoy a renaissance in places like Florida and California.

Hritzko