www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islam

This is very insulting, to Alice and to our readers. Henry owes Alice an apology. I ask that he gives this apology before posting again on this Forum. Disagreement over issues is legitimate. Dismissing another�s opinion as the product of ignorance is not.

Henry might consider that there is a difference between Muslims and Islamists. Alice is clearly speaking of the Islamists, and possibly the �hole� in Islamic theology that allows Islamists to justify their cause.

Christians can legitimately find different balances of the ideal of peace with our neighbors with the command to help our neighbor who is suffering (like the innocent in Afghanistan under the Taliban and Iraq under Hussein), not to mention the real need to defend ourselves against those intent on obliterating us from the face of the earth.

Alice - or anyone - is there a collective icon, so to speak, of all the New Martyrs of the Muslim yoke? This might be a time to circulate it widely.

It would also be sensible to examine the model of religious tolerance which even "moderate" Muslims have in mind for the proper way for Christians and Jews to live in connection with a Muslim society. Even as I write, the Muslims in England are seriously attempting to organize a Muslim Parliament in that country.

I have no ambition to revive the institution of the Royal Cattle of the Sultan.

Incognitus

I believe tempers are becoming frayed on this thread therefore I will try and tread carefully with what I have to say. However, Henry I believe that you may have overlooked some of the more valid points Alice had to make. Whilst it is true that I would love to see an orthodox Catholic in the White House, I dont think parading around the site of 9/11 gives off the right sort of message towards that ends. Likewise whilst I do not believe the majority of Muslims are suicide bombers in waiting it is true that the great authorities of Islam have yet to condemn military Jihad.

You are a scholar Henry thus I'll assume you know the history and venerable status of the Al-Azhar University, Cairo. Accordingly, you will also be aware that the kind of scholarship Al-Azhar produces. Take for example Yusuf al-Qaradawi [en.wikipedia.org] called by some Muslims e.g. Salafi's 'the Wicked Mufti' for what they regard as his overly liberal views.

Now take a look at some of the articles from his website Islam Online [islamonline.net] . For instance: Jihad: Not Only Fighting [islamonline.net] and Jihad in Islam: Preemptive or Defensive? [islamonline.net] As liberal as he supposedly is Qawadari makes no secret of his support for Jihad. Moreover, though supposedly the second article tells us Jihad is only to be used in defensive war what constitutes defensive war is not explained.

We're told that defensive war is resorted to when the religion of Islam is threatened but what we're not told is what constitutes a threat. In light of historical precedent e.g. the Muslim invasions of Visigothic Spain, the Frankish Kingdom and Medieval Sicily it seems that this 'defence' can be legitimately used against those who refuse to accept Islam. Since under Shariah Law apostasy from Islam is punishable by Death I would hazard a guess that sending Christian missionaries into Muslim countries could be judged as an act of war too. Certainly I dont know of the scholars of Al-Azhar ever condemning the expansion of Islam by conquest.

If this then is the most liberal traditional Islam can be then I think Alice has a few genuine points that you cannot simply dismiss by saying she doesn't know all the facts. The fact is as a Greek she might well know better than most what Jihad--which according to the first article is lawful so long as the leader calls for it--can achieve e.g. Sultan Mehmed II's conquest of Constantinople.

The fact is though the greater mass of Muslims are not suicidal fanatics. At least in Sunni Islam their most respected teachers, the graduates of Al-Azhar and its theology faculty, maintain a model of Islam which though less dangerous than the views of a scholar like Al-Zawahiri and those who believe the world to be in a state of Jahaliyah could easily be turned to suit violent ends.

March forward, Jews of all lands! The ancient fatherland of yours is calling you."
- by Moses Hess, in The Revival of Israel, 1862

Moses Hess. Ah.. let's see, he wasn't a socialist?

What does this place say: http://www.wzo.org.il/home/portrait/hess.htm

Let me see.. "Hess contributed towards Marx's "Communist Manifesto" written in 1848 in particular the term 'religion as the opium of the masses.'" Yes, he was a communist and not just a socialist, and helped in the production of the Communist Manifesto.

Maybe I still have everything mixed up and I am ignorant of this. Let me look.

What does the Britannica have to say? I know, I wlll read it here. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040282, "an important early proponent of Zionism." Hmm. Maybe I am not so mixed up as I thought.

As an aside, I will not respond to the Administrator's insult to me -- nor will he, it seems, respond to the insult to me by Alice (calling me out as a sexist when gender had nothing to do with the discussion). Pointing out an opinion is based upon ignorance is not an insult -- not all opinions are equal, nor do all opinions come from the same level of education or study.

I will let others respond.. since it is clear that people think Muslims should be insulted and they should tolerate that insult but people should not correct ignorance.

Another quick postscript before I bow out-- Myles, did you read the articles on Jihad? The first for example points out it is a struggle not just war -- meaning for example struggle against Satan. St Paul uses the same kind of imagery... second, the West also makes "just war" theories but apparently is also unclear what it means to have a "defensive war."

Dear Henry,

Actually, apart from the fact that I believe your post to Alice was insulting, your line of thought here regarding other world religions betrays a certain naivete, don't you think?

Has anyone here ever denied that violence and disagreements et al. exist among the world's great religions?

We are all well aware of the situation with Hinduism in India and the other examples you mention. And of the cultural points you raise as well.

This has nothing whatever to do with the actions of a violent minority who use religion, as Christians and others do as well, to further their goals.

We are all violent, all of us are, including you, sir, with your offensive language referring to our Moderator and Friend, Alice.

In offending her, you offend me and many others here who feel her offense in their own hearts and take it personally. And also who would agree with her take on things.

Please don't flatter yourself by condemning those who don't agree with you as being somehow intellectually inferior to yourself.

You sound like one of my college students who when he wants to dominate a discussion, tries to brand those who disagree with his assessment of things as having not read this or that and then shoots out reading references at everyone.

That is simply intellectual cowardice and effrontery, as well as demagoguery, as I've told him.

Everyone has the right to a different opinion on the events as they occur. It's all in the interpretation, as you should know.

Your refusal to allow Alice her view is simple boorishness.

I hope you haven't started taking on some of the intolerant characteristics of those who seem hell-bent on defending here.

LEAVE OUR ALICE ALONE!

Have a nice day otherwise . . .

Alex

Dear Henry,

Perhaps you don't like socialists, but I have nothing against them.

A number of my professor-colleagues are atheists and we get along famously.

Your point is . . .?

Alex

your doggone right he owes her an apology!!!!!!!!!!
Alice manifests the love of Jesus in her posts, and she has been a blessing to me since day one. Karl, you talk that way to a lady down here in the South, and you might be picking your teeth up off the floor after a good ol' boy gets an earful of what you wrote put that into words, we don't like that down here.
Alice doesn't seem ignorant to me, I have a Bachelors in Religious Studies and a Masters in Biblical Studies, and I say she is more or less on the ball in her analysis and basic knowledge of world religions.oh, Alice, I can identify with your loss, my life long friend Anthony, who lives in Queens, lost a first cousin in the Towers. only by the grace of God, neither of us were with him, his father (Anthony's uncle)had offered to get Anthony a job with that cousin, oh so many years ago, and I was looking for work as well as did Anthony, and gave serious thought about living in Gotham. like Aslan in the Chronicles of Narnia who told the children it is not for us to know what might have been if, so it is with us, but it could have happened. may Anthony's cousin rest in eternal peace along with your friend, Alice. but thank God we are not there with him. good work Alice, and to you as well, friend Administrator.
Much Love,
Jonn

Hello,

First off...I thought Henry's line to Alice was demeaning. She is an intellegent and caring woman. I haven't seen any apology yet from Henry towards Alice.

Second of all...I want to make a huge point here...while some of you say that the extremist Muslims don't reflect on other Muslims...hmmm...I somewhat want to beg the difference here...

I have NEVER EVER seen and heard from any Muslim organizations and communities condemning any acts of violence happened overseas. I even have NOT heard of any condemnations from American Muslims regarding to 9/11!!!!!! EVER!

The only thing they say is that they are religion of peace in defense of many angry Americans after 9/11. But they have NOT issued any public (or private) condemnations to their fellow Muslim brethrens overseas for their endless acts of violence and HATRED.

That is a HUGE POINT HERE!

So, therefore, MOST if not all Muslims have the same hatred and violent mentality all over...even in America.

In fact, a close friend of mine overheard Muslims talking in a restaurant...they said, "We hate the Christians...blah blah blah". WOW.

I have NEVER EVER seen any religion commit so much hateful words, emotions, actions, etc. except for Muslims (Islam).

Sure, there are people with other faiths saying bad things..etc...but not out of pure hatred...just out of ignorance, fear, etc.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas,

You have just joined the new forum association of those who are ignorant of world politics!

On behalf of this association, let me be the first to welcome you!!

Our motto could be: We don't believe in hitting at any religion - except in self-defence!

It's so good to have you on board!

Kalo sarisote sto-Plio! (Welcome on Board in Greek . . .)

Alex

Henry I did indeed read the articles and I dont think you can equate the West's doctrine of Just War with the doctrine of Jihad. The doctrine of Just War does not include the war being validated because the ruler calls for it. Nor is it just to launch an offensive war against non-Christians for the propagation of the faith or for sending missionaries to our lands. There is no way even the Crusades can be compared to the widespread use of military evangelisation used by Islam since the 7th century.

The very reason the Knights Templar were formed, for instance, is because once they'd completed their pilgrimages to Jerusalem many of the warriors went home. Unlike the Muslim conquests which were for the sole purpose of colonisation and expansion. No Crusade was ever launched at Mecca but the Turks consistently declared their intention of turning St Peter's into a mosque. Moreover, they consistently tried to enter Western Europe up until their finally defeat in 1683 and I emphasis again that this variety of Jihad has never been condemned by any of the influential Muslim authorities of Sunni Islam.

Haha Alex! You're too much!

I've been here since '98...yeah during a time before the "great crash" of the forum.

Wow! You mean to tell me that all that time, I've been so ignorant of world politics? WOW! I thought I read enough news here and there.

Heh, funny clown you!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Myles,

With all that you know about the Templars, do you attend Knight School at Oxford?

Alex

Daer Henry,

If you can forgive me for my post above, I ask you to . . .

I really don't care about world politics, or about much else.

I do care about Alice though . . .

Had you said similar things about, say, Incognitus, then I wouldn't have reacted nearly so dramatically . . .

Anyway, today you learned about a Forum taboo . . .

Alex

No Dr Roman (wish I had though). Its just that the history of the Medieval Church is part of my BA

Dear Myles,

Good for you! We need more people with a medieval outlook I say!

A great counter-balance to the Bible-thumpers of Virginia.

(Personally, I think our Administrator might be hanging out with that sort a lot lately . . . ).

Not to us, not to us, but to Thy Name be the Glory!

Beauseant! (is that how you spell it, Commander?)

Alex