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Where can I learn more about Islam from a Catholic/Orthodox perspective?

Open a newspaper or a history book, the conclusions seem inescapable from any perspective.

Robert Spencer is actually a Melkite Deacon, which is never mentioned in his books. Very good one too. His teachings on the Old and New Testaments are excellent. Read his book, you will be supprised, especially since he is Middle Eastern heritage he understands...
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)
by Robert Spencer
http://www.wndbookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6805

Karol J�zef Wojtyła has many interesting things to say on Islam too...

http://www.daughtersofstpaul.com/johnpaulpapacy/meetjp/thepope/jpislam.html

I think he held an important position in Catholicism... maybe I am wrong.

Ray you could try and find out what the Catholic Church - Islamic dialogue people put out on this topic. They would be Rome based I imagine.

If you want a good book, I would recommend:


"Interreligious Dialogue: The Official Teachings of the Catholic Church (1963 - 1995)" Ed. Francesco Gioia.

It's more than just about Islam, but about Catholic relations to non-Christian religions.

Other articles to look into:

http://www.nccbuscc.org/seia/borelli.htm

http://www.sedos.org/english/fitzgerald.htm

And for a very thorough discussion-- which will take time to read through, I would recommend:

http://www.sjweb.info/dialogo/documents/doc_show.cfm?Number=5

New Martyrs of the Turkish Yoke [roca.org]

Jihad Watch [jihadwatch.org]

Dear Rilian,

The photo of the small demonstration claiming 'Islam will dominate' with a picture of the flag of Islam on the White House is interesting.

First of all, how DARE these men, members of the so called 'religion of peace' desecrate the site of the death of innocent civilians at THEIR fellow Muslim's murderous hands!

Secondly, I have heard a top spokesperson for Islam in London say exactly the same thing on television right after 9/11: "Our goal is to see the flag of Islam on the White House".

I stand by my words that this type of mentality, and this type of 'brain washing' is typical of a cult and NOT a faith tradition. We do not see these words from Buddhists, Hindus, Christians or Jews.

It seems to me that their goals are not too different from the goals of a certain mad man named Adolph Hitler: world domination.

Lord have mercy!

In Christ,
Alice

Alice,

I think most Christians in the United States say they want a Christian in the White House. Of course they won't say they want a Muslim in there! Nor will Hindus say it -- since they are (get this) Hindu!

However, if you are saying we don't hear Christians wanting war and domination -- then you do not read what people like Pat Robertson push, or the agenda of many of the militant Christian nationalists (militias). Of course, I constantly hear Christians say "Muslims are wicked, they are violent, so we got to wipe them out with a final solution." They do what they project upon others more often than not!

Your ignorance of world politics and how other religions are within their dominions (or the way Christians ARE acting around the world) says more about you than it does of what Christians and members of other faiths are doing.

Zionism was founded upon a mentality of warfare and terrorism -- combined socialism, atheism and the creation of a new landscape. You can certainly read (as many have shown on here) that Jewish-Israel is a racist state which is hostile not only to Muslims but to Christians -- all you have to do is read what the Christians in Israel are saying and not put your blinders on with some sort of racial idolatry to see what is going on there.

Hindus are not so pure, either. A great Hindu nationalism is causing riots and problems in India. In part it is a reaction to Christian colonialism in India, a colonialism which they still feel is apparent by the Christian missionaries who go to India and try to convert the Hindus and have the converts do all kinds of vile activities ("Go destroy the idols!") In response, the Hindu nationalism (which is quite violent) is destroying churches and attacking Christians and wanting to wipe out all non-Indian religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc) from India and barely tolerate native Indian traditions.

Buddhists -- while there is an ideal of compassion and peace -- are far from the ideal. A student studying in Tibet would see the violence and antagonism just within the different schools of thought in Tibetan Buddhism (Kundun shows a bit of this).

It is a human frailty and religion is often used as a stomping ground for deeper issues. When you see in Ireland the Protestants and Catholics fighting each other (remember the IRA? remember Ian Paisley) on one level it is religious and it is often treated as a religious war. It's really a cultural war and the different parties in the fight barely practice the faiths they are "fighting for" if at all!

Finally -- I would like to recommend another book/reference: Archbishop Anastasios, "Facing the World: Orthodox Christian Essays on Global Concerns." In the introduction to his chapter on Orthodox relations with Islam, his grace points out, "Orthodoxy's encounter with Islam not only took the form of military conflict and confrontation, but evolved into a quiet coexistence that lasted for centuries" (103). He makes the same points as John Paul II, "In order to meet the challenges of our era we often have to avoid confrontational ways of speaking to each other, or against each other; instead we are obliged to make an effort to examine together the new signs of the times, the thorny new problems of our age" (117). He honestly points out that the Orthodox have difficulty in Islamic nations, but so do Muslims in Western nations and both sides have done wrong -- it is not a one sided affair. This means as he points out that for us, "it requires true Christian understanding, consistency, AND REPENTANCE; that is, it requires us to re-experience our faith continuously, through humility AND GENUINE LOVE. This is precisely the 'perfect love' that 'casts out fear' (1Jn 4:18) -- EVERY FORM OF FEAR -- and fills that with hope" (126).

What I see is fearmongering and despair, not love and hope. I see Christians saying "look how evil they are," while ignoring the plank in their own eye. They are afraid of dealing with their own sins, their own evils, of repenting and it is easier to strike out and project the spirit within to others. The fear I see is a fear of hate. His grace is correct. The way out is love, and in that love - FEAR will vanish.

Your post in declaring 'my ignorance' is way out of line.

My opinions stand as do yours. We will agree to disagree without insults.

The husband of an acquaintance of mine died in those burning infernos of 9/11 leaving two little boys fatherless. I will not tolerate anyone at that site with a sign saying 'Islam will dominate'.

That is all I will have to say to you.

Alice

Alice,

I am sure some Christians said, "I will not tolerate that murdering Saul among us, thank you very much Lord." Or perhaps it was the Byzanitnes who said, "I won't tolerate that rampaging warlord Vladimir among us."

The Christian experience HAS been and continues to be one of forgiveness and mercy. Jesus said, "Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do." This is the model for us to follow.

An eye for an eye leaves the world blind. I remember so many people who let out scorn for those victims of 9-11 who said, "Not in our name" to GW Bush. They understood many of the Muslims feel the same as you -- "I will not forgive those who have helped kill my family in my homeland." They understood that the response is not hate for hate, kill for kill, vengence for vengence. It is to understand that the real war is the war in the spirit, and to give away to fear and hate is to admit defeat.

You said you have an opinion and I have my own. That might be true. But it is also true that your opinion stated things which were not true. It meant you were indeed ignorant of the full facts. The claims you made vs what is actuality shows that. Alas, I pray you will be willing to see what is going on instead of making statement which are outright not true.

Dear Henry,

WHO exactly is not forgiving? Me? I think you misread me my friend, or you don't read any of my posts. I have *often* said that many people of the Muslim faith are the nicest, warmest and most lovely people one might ever meet on this earth, however, that does not change my mind about their religion and the mentality of many of their leaders.

I remind you that in London, when impressionable young Middle Eastern men of your age (students) feel homesick and want to seek out their culture, as is a normal thing to do, they go to mosques, even though many of them are not religious, because just like ethnic Orthodox churches in this country, they also serve as social communities. It is there that they are indoctrinated into hatred and a passion for restoring the Caliphate. They are also recruited into militant groups. This was documented WITH interviews in an indepth documentary I saw from England.

I do not HATE anyone, but I do fear the mentality of the Muslim religion.

You also twist my post by saying that I have made statements which are not true. Which STATEMENTS have I made that are not true? The ones about the photos which Andrew/Rilian's link provided? Why not twist Andrew's post then? Is it because he is not a woman? Or were my eyes and ears at what I saw on television also a lie? Who are you to say what I saw or did not see? If my opinions are a 'not true', then so be it since they are, after all, opinions.

I would also like to say that when one so young as you is as presumptious about another person as you have been about me and my intelligence and my spiritual life, then you are the one that should take a long look at how you present yourself in words, before you preach to others.

One thing I can say for sure and is to the honor of their upbringing, is that all the Muslim young men from the Middle East which my son went to university with and was friends with in Washington, D.C. knew how to speak respectfully to women.

Sincerely,
Alice

Many Christians have the mentality "Christianity will dominate." Many Americans have the mentality "America will dominate." It used to be that Imperial Russia would go into war with the cry, "Repent ye heathen, for God is with us."

It seems to be more than a Muslim thing.

Indeed, if you can't understand why someone of another religion who believes their religion is the truth and the way to following God so that they want God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven... then I wonder if you mean it when you pray the Lord's prayer?

Wanting God's will on earth is a good thing. Perhaps one can get that will wrong. But Christians at least should know that will includes.. dying to the self, giving of ourselves in the name of love up to and including the willingness to die for love.

The way out of the mess is not to do the exact same thing you cry out against. It seems to me that many people are saying, "They should tolerate my free speech when I insult them; I will not tolerate them when they say something back."

The Vatican once again shown to be correct. "Real or verbal intolerance, no matter where it comes from, as action or reaction, is always a serious threat to peace." Christ showed the way out of intolerance.... he showed loving compassion to one's enemies is the Christian way. He made it clear. In doing this, in ceasing the hostilities and responding in love, while the response and reaction we get might not immediately be the one we want -- yet given time, the call for love and peace does change lives and world powers. Rome learned this.

We fight not against flesh and blood... don't lose the fight!

----
I needed to add a postscript to respond to the text you ammended to your message. It is clear if you read the context of what I said, the issue of ignorance was what you said about other religions not being this way. I did not think I would have to add to Christianity, for the legacy of Christian intolerance is well known (and apologized for by great men like Pope John Paul II). Thus your little ad hominem making it out an issue of sexism is more than a little out of line. You want to be able to criticize others but tell men not to dare respond because you are a woman. How lovely.

Dear Henry,

You said:

"I think most Christians in the United States say they want a Christian in the White House."

I say:

Let's not forget this nation was established by Christians that had (of all things), a 'Christian' mentality. Why not keep it that way.

You said:

"However, if you are saying we don't hear Christians wanting war and domination -- then you do not read what people like Pat Robertson"

I say:

I have listened and watched Pat Robertson for many years throughout my life and I have never heard him say anything in reference to war and domination. Actually he was the only one that said Clinton should not go to war to support the Muslim Albanian terrorists in Kosovo. But the President of the time didn't listen to him, and now all the Christians have left out of fear for their lives, and all the ancient monasteries and Churches destroyed.

Have you ever watched or listened to him? You know, I'd like to know where you get your information from.


You said:

"Muslims are wicked, they are violent, so we got to wipe them out with a final solution." They do what they project upon others more often than not!"

I say:

I have never heard anyone say that they are wicked and violent, but I have heard that the extremist element within them is...and as far as I'm concerned the French were right when they said they follow their leaders blindly. Frankly, I think they are easily manipulated...by their own leaders of course.

You said:

"Your ignorance of world politics and how other religions are within their dominions (or the way Christians ARE acting around the world) says more about you than it does of what Christians and members of other faiths are doing."

I say:

Yes the Christians are broadcasting in order to edify and some of those denominations might even be proslityzing. Actually, I think when some Christian doctors go to third world countries, (free of charge of course), they even hand out Christian pamphlets. Horrors!

Frankly I don't think the million or so killed in Africa were Muslims killed by Christians, but rather the other way around.

You said:

"Zionism was founded upon a mentality of warfare and terrorism -- combined socialism, atheism and the creation of a new landscape."

I say:

No! Zionism was founded so that the Jews that were persecuted in Russia and other parts of the world could get a homeland. They have a two millinium old saying: Next year in Jerusalem.

You said:

"You can certainly read (as many have shown on here) that Jewish-Israel is a racist state which is hostile not only to Muslims but to Christians -- all you have to do is read what the Christians in Israel are saying and not put your blinders on with some sort of racial idolatry to see what is going on there."

I say:

Yes maybe it is a racist state in our sense of the word, but then again they are being threatened each and every day.

You said:

" all you have to do is read what the Christians in Israel are saying and not put your blinders on with some sort of racial idolatry to see what is going on there."

I say:

What would happen to those Christians if they dared say otherwise. Did you know that they don't dare sell their land to an Israeli...if they want to live that is. If you don't believe me, then just read what was done to the last Patriarch of Jerusalem because he was accused of selling land to Jews.

You say:

"Hindus are not so pure, either. A great Hindu nationalism is causing riots and problems in India. In part it is a reaction to Christian colonialism in India, a colonialism which they still feel is apparent by the Christian missionaries who go to India and try to convert the Hindus and have the converts do all kinds of vile activities ("Go destroy the idols!")"

I say:

In other words, you believe that we should not 'evangelize', and thata these 'vile' activities be stopped...such as the destruction of idols. Well I guess in your mind, Christianity should not exist because it is these very things that were done in pagan Greece and Rome. Actually, be careful because when venerating a saint, he or she might have been prone to conduct some of these 'vile' activities.

You said:

" In response, the Hindu nationalism (which is quite violent) is destroying churches and attacking Christians and wanting to wipe out all non-Indian religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc) from India and barely tolerate native Indian traditions."

I say:

It's not easy for people to become Christians. There are bound to be martyrs. We venerate so many of them in our churches.

You said:

"Finally -- I would like to recommend another book/reference: Archbishop Anastasios, "Facing the World: Orthodox Christian Essays on Global Concerns." In the introduction to his chapter on Orthodox relations with Islam, his grace points out, "Orthodoxy's encounter with Islam not only took the form of military conflict and confrontation, but evolved into a quiet coexistence that lasted for centuries""

I say:

Of course it did, as long as it was under the dominance of Islam. The Koran says that no Muslim must be under the dominance of any other religion.

But then again, maybe that's what you want.

Zenovia