www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islam

Please, no insults! I just wanted a good book reference.

I think I found one:
Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics [amazon.com]

There was a Russian Orthodox priest that preached against Islam (17 century I think). I think he is a saint. Anyway, I heard he was a good apologist. If anyone knows his name or his writtings I would like to read them.

Dear Ray,

O.K., I'll try and restrain myself . . .

Alex

[Linked Image]

Beau Seant!!

I've never seen a synaxis of the New Martyrs. I have seen icons of St. John the Russian. Fr. Nektarios Serfes on his web site [fr-d-serfes.org] about the New Martyrs doesn't have one.

Another book worth reading would be The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude [amazon.com] .

Andrew

Dear Henry,

I wondered why you did not take issue with Andrew over posting the photo but rather took issue with me for being outraged over it. I wondered if I was perhaps an easier target because I was a woman. I ask forgiveness if I seemed to imply that you were sexist...as I am definitely not a feminist! As Orthodox Christianity places great emphasis on humility and seeking forgiveness, I will do this first and also wish God's blessings upon you.

However, I did not criticize anyone. Whom have I ever criticized or belittled on this forum? I feel that you are somehow twisting my posts, my words and my intentions. I criticized the hateful acts of some Islamists just as I have in the past, publicly criticized the hateful acts of some fundamentalist Orthodox (Christian) monks from Mt Athos towards the Holy Father..if you cared to know me at all, you would know that I am quite fair and objective. If you take personal offense at my opinions of inappropriate words and acts of religious fundamentalists and militants, Christian or Islamic, there is nothing I can do about it.

I am also sorry that it offends you that I think that men should be respectful of women. That is how my father's generation was, that is how my my baby boomer generation has been raised, and that is how I have tried to raise my generation X son. That does not mean, in any way, that considerate intellectual conversation and debate is off limits between the sexes!

I don't think that there is anything wrong with old fashioned values of courtesy and politeness..it makes for a much less stressful life and world.

In Christ,
Alice

Certainly men and women should respect one another, if only out of civility. "Respect" in this context does not in the least imply servility or submission.

Incognitus

What ever happened to "turn the other cheek" ? On and on and on and on it goes. 3 pages of it!
Christians? Are we really Christains?

Turning the other cheek doesn't mean scampering away in silence. If accused like St Paul should we not insist on our right to have our case heard? What could be more Christian than imitating the example Our Lord?

The only time I'm afraid to turn the other cheek is when I'm being spanked . . .

Alex

Henry�s refusal to acknowledge his lack of charity and to apologize to Alice has earned him the loss of his posting privileges on this Forum.

Henry seems to assume that those who do not agree with his opinion are ignorant. That�s too bad. People interpret things based upon their experience. That two people come to different conclusions about a topic does not automatically mean that one is correct and the other is ignorant. Henry would have done better to lay out his opinions in a way that could convince others to agree with him rather than to simply make accusations of ignorance.

In an earlier post Henry stated: �I constantly hear Christians say �Muslims are wicked, they are violent, so we got to wipe them out with a final solution.�" This makes me wonder who Henry hangs out with or where he gets his information. The Christians I know, whether politically conservative or liberal, (and even most on tv) seem to be able to discern between ordinary Muslims (whom we are called to respect while disagreeing on theology and who mean us no harm) and Islamists (who wish to destroy us). Certainly our President and most of our other elected officials (of either party) discern the difference.

If Henry is willing to apologize to Alice for his offensive comments I will restore his posting privileges so that he may post that apology. And I will consider (but not guarantee) allowing him to keep his posting privileges.

The rather recent distinction between "Islamist" and "Muslim" puzzles me a bit. There are, of course, several varieties of Muslims (the two best known are the Shi'a and the Sunni). Then, back 40 years or so ago, the term "Islamic" was used for various small groups claiming some sort of connection with Islam but not acknowledged by most Muslims.

Then, of course, there is the word "Mohammedan", which does not please the adherents of this particular world-view.

They also would probably not like "Hagarene", but they're not likely to know what it means or how and by whom it is used.

Perhaps we could organize a large celebration of Our Lady of Victories this year - I think it's sometime in October. I'll be happy to do a dramatic reading of Chesterton's magnificent poem Lepanto.

Incognitus

To be honest I dont see any distinction between Islamist and Muslim, they are one and the same. As I highlighted by posting articles from the 'wicked Mufti's' website even the most liberal of traditional--that is orthodox--interpreters of the Quran leave open avenues for Jihad (moreover, check out his interpretation of 'Martyrdom Operations' against Israelis).

Now, granted not all Muslims will carry out military Jihad that's true the majority--that is of practicing believing Muslims--will do one of the other types of Jihad e.g. proselytism. However, Jihad of some form of another remains obligatory and moreover military Jihad remains a perfectly lawful option according to this mode of thinking.

If the only means of seperating Islamists and Muslims is a belief in Jihad then there is no distinction. Really what it seems to come down to is that there is no formal agreement between the major scholars of Islam over whether or not the West really is challenging Islam to a war or not? Hence, the great drive by those who believe we are to encourage this idea and make a full scale Jihad lawful.

We should all be clear on this fact: Just as Orthodox Catholicism wants everyone to be part of the Church so too the Dar Al Islam wants to bring the Dar Al Harb into submission. Moreover, they are willing to use any means neccessary to do so the only thing they disagree on is whether or not the lawful conditions have been met to use extreme measures (at least apart from where Israel is concerned).

Do not forget there was once a time where an Islamic army would send an emisarry demanding conversion of a land and having been refused would take that as an act of war against Islam and invade e.g. the Byzantine Middle East. Indeed, given this is the earliest precedent of Islamic law on interpreting what constitutes legitimate reasons for Jihad there is no real reason why sometime in the future the Grand Mufti's wont simply decide the West's refusal to accept Islam as true calls for Jihad. Cynical as this may sound I believe the only reason why they haven't done this against the West is because they know we'd win whereas in places like Sudan the Mujahadeen continue their 'apostolate'....

Now do I believe all Muslims are looking to kill me? Thats like asking if all Catholics care about Papal encyclicals. The answer is obvious. What I am saying is that orthodox Sunni Islam and those who follow the intrpretations of its great scholars always leave the door wide ajar for another military Jihad to pick up where the last one failed in 1683.

[Linked Image]

Here's the poem, courtesy of Incognitus:


G. K. Chesterton. 1874�

Lepanto

WHITE founts falling in the Courts of the sun,
And the Soldan of Byzantium is smiling as they run;
There is laughter like the fountains in that face of all men feared,
It stirs the forest darkness, the darkness of his beard;
It curls the blood-red crescent, the crescent of his lips;
For the inmost sea of all the earth is shaken with his ships.
They have dared the white republics up the capes of Italy,
They have dashed the Adriatic round the Lion of the Sea,
And the Pope has cast his arms abroad for agony and loss,
And called the kings of Christendom for swords about the Cross.
The cold queen of England is looking in the glass;
The shadow of the Valois is yawning at the Mass;
From evening isles fantastical rings faint the Spanish gun,
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attainted stall,
The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,
The last and lingering troubadour to whom the bird has sung,
That once went singing southward when all the world was young.
In that enormous silence, tiny and unafraid,
Comes up along a winding road the noise of the Crusade.
Strong gongs groaning as the guns boom far,
Don John of Austria is going to the war,
Stiff flags straining in the night-blasts cold

In the gloom black-purple, in the glint old-gold,
Torchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums,
Then the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon, and he comes.
Don John laughing in the brave beard curled,
Spurning of his stirrups like the thrones of all the world,
Holding his head up for a flag of all the free.
Love-light of Spain�hurrah!
Death-light of Africa!
Don John of Austria
Is riding to the sea.

Mahound is in his paradise above the evening star,
(Don John of Austria is going to the war.)
He moves a mighty turban on the timeless houri's knees,
His turban that is woven of the sunsets and the seas.
He shakes the peacock gardens as he rises from his ease,
And he strides among the tree-tops and is taller than the trees;
And his voice through all the garden is a thunder sent to bring
Black Azrael and Ariel and Ammon on the wing.
Giants and the Genii,
Multiplex of wing and eye,
Whose strong obedience broke the sky
When Solomon was king.

They rush in red and purple from the red clouds of the morn,
From the temples where the yellow gods shut up their eyes in scorn;
They rise in green robes roaring from the green hells of the sea
Where fallen skies and evil hues and eyeless creatures be,
On them the sea-valves cluster and the grey sea-forests curl,
Splashed with a splendid sickness, the sickness of the pearl;
They swell in sapphire smoke out of the blue cracks of the ground,�
They gather and they wonder and give worship to Mahound.
And he saith, "Break up the mountains where the hermit-folk can hide,
And sift the red and silver sands lest bone of saint abide,
And chase the Giaours flying night and day, not giving rest,
For that which was our trouble comes again out of the west.
We have set the seal of Solomon on all things under sun,
Of knowledge and of sorrow and endurance of things done.
But a noise is in the mountains, in the mountains, and I know
The voice that shook our palaces�four hundred years ago:
It is he that saith not 'Kismet'; it is he that knows not Fate;
It is Richard, it is Raymond, it is Godfrey at the gate!
It is he whose loss is laughter when he counts the wager worth,
Put down your feet upon him, that our peace be on the earth."
For he heard drums groaning and he heard guns jar,
(Don John of Austria is going to the war.)
Sudden and still�hurrah!
Bolt from Iberia!
Don John of Austria
Is gone by Alcalar.

St. Michael's on his Mountain in the sea-roads of the north
(Don John of Austria is girt and going forth.)

Where the grey seas glitter and the sharp tides shift
And the sea-folk labour and the red sails lift.
He shakes his lance of iron and he claps his wings of stone;
The noise is gone through Normandy; the noise is gone alone;
The North is full of tangled things and texts and aching eyes,
And dead is all the innocence of anger and surprise,
And Christian killeth Christian in a narrow dusty room,
And Christian dreadeth Christ that hath a newer face of doom,
And Christian hateth Mary that God kissed in Galilee,�
But Don John of Austria is riding to the sea.

Don John calling through the blast and the eclipse
Crying with the trumpet, with the trumpet of his lips,
Trumpet that sayeth ha!
Domino gloria!
Don John of Austria
Is shouting to the ships.

King Philip's in his closet with the Fleece about his neck
(Don John of Austria is armed upon the deck.)
The walls are hung with velvet that is black and soft as sin,
And little dwarfs creep out of it and little dwarfs creep in.
He holds a crystal phial that has colours like the moon,
He touches, and it tingles, and he trembles very soon,
And his face is as a fungus of a leprous white and grey
Like plants in the high houses that are shuttered from the day,
And death is in the phial and the end of noble work,
But Don John of Austria has fired upon the Turk.
Don John's hunting, and his hounds have bayed�
Booms away past Italy the rumour of his raid.
Gun upon gun, ha! ha!
Gun upon gun, hurrah!
Don John of Austria
Has loosed the cannonade.

The Pope was in his chapel before day or battle broke,
(Don John of Austria is hidden in the smoke.)
The hidden room in man's house where God sits all the year,
The secret window whence the world looks small and very dear.
He sees as in a mirror on the monstrous twilight sea
The crescent of his cruel ships whose name is mystery;
They fling great shadows foe-wards, making Cross and Castle dark,
They veil the plum�d lions on the galleys of St. Mark;
And above the ships are palaces of brown, black-bearded chiefs,
And below the ships are prisons, where with multitudinous griefs,
Christian captives sick and sunless, all a labouring race repines
Like a race in sunken cities, like a nation in the mines.
They are lost like slaves that sweat, and in the skies of morning hung
The stair-ways of the tallest gods when tyranny was young.
They are countless, voiceless, hopeless as those fallen or fleeing on
Before the high Kings' horses in the granite of Babylon.
And many a one grows witless in his quiet room in hell
Where a yellow face looks inward through the lattice of his cell,
And he finds his God forgotten, and he seeks no more a sign�
(But Don John of Austria has burst the battle-line!)
Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop,
Purpling all the ocean like a bloody pirate's sloop,
Scarlet running over on the silvers and the golds,
Breaking of the hatches up and bursting of the holds,
Thronging of the thousands up that labour under sea
White for bliss and blind for sun and stunned for liberty.

Vivat Hispania!
Domino Gloria!
Don John of Austria
Has set his people free!

Cervantes on his galley sets the sword back in the sheath
(Don John of Austria rides homeward with a wreath.)
And he sees across a weary land a straggling road in Spain,
Up which a lean and foolish knight for ever rides in vain,
And he smiles, but not as Sultans smile, and settles back the blade....
(But Don John of Austria rides home from the Crusade.)


Blessed Emperor Charles of Austria, intercede with God for us!

Wow!
Looks like ol' G.K. will be celebrating his 132nd birthday this year!

oh, MY!
Much Love,
Jonn