www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Neo-Paganism in Russia

I couldn't find the site I once saw, but here is one (in Ukrainian) that is entitled "Ridna Pravoslavna Vira."

http://pravo.iatp.org.ua

I like the Sun/Tryzub logo.

ALL HAIL ALMIGHTY TRYZUB! WORSHIP THE TRYZUB! OFFER BURNT SACRIFIES TO THE POWERFUL TRYZUB! OOOOH AHHHHH.

Dave

Good question. But�

1) It would be fine to take in account that latest geographical names sometimes tell us nothing about their origin. You say that the territory of the Ukraine-to-be used to be named Ruthenia or something like that by some Western cartographers of the 1600s while the future Russian Federation was just Moscovy. OK. However, we have a similar example concerning France. The district of Paris was formerly being named �Il de France� but, certainly, had no connection with the Franc people whose original place of inhabitance was, actually, Netherlands. Compare it with the district of Kyiv named �Rus� while the Vikings, originally possessing this name, came actually down from Novgorod, that is today�s Russian federation!

2) Not only western maps, but also Muscovite sources should be noted. The title of the Grand Duke of Moscow was the �Sovereign of all Russia� since the 15th but not any 17th or 18th centuries. The title Czar (Caesar) was accepted in the 16th century. Later on it was converted into the Emperor of all the Russias, that is including Minor and White Russias (current Ukraine and Belarus). Of course, these titles were not recognized immediately in the West because it had another (Roman or German) Caesar. Hence various differences in maps, names, etc.

3) In short, both Russia and the Ukraine, as well as Ruthenia have absolutely equal historical rights to claim the religious, cultural, and political heritage from the Rus Novgorod, Kyiv and any other ancient Slav duchies.

Best wishes,
Valerius

Dear Alex,

Every honest person, I think, that has common sense and is familiar with what occurred to the Christianity at large and, particularly, to Russia after the fall of the Monarchy has to recognize that there is no other way except Monarchy for Slav nations to exist peacefully and in prosperity. It, certainly, does not mean that I intend to idealize the past.

By the way, having separated from Britain, newly independent America was choosing between constitutional monarchy and republic in the course of creating its political system. Even a Throne Hall was supposed in the White House for the possible King George Washington. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the referendum proved to be for republic. If the Kingdom had been proclaimed the modern American imperialism, I think, would have been much subtler, less rude, and, so to say, had �royal delicateness�.

Valerius

Dear Valerius,

I'm glad to hear that you have a good sense of humour. That is a very good thing to have in life.

The 'Ukrainian Encyclopedia' published by Harvard University would be a good source for the term 'Kyiv-Rus'. According to this scholarly encyclopedia (soon to be free on the internet ), Kyiv was the center of the Rus people. The Russian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Roman Catholic Church all are in agreement about this.

You are correct in stating that the principality of Kyiv Rus was different in many ways when compared to that same territory which exists today. A 1000 years can change the landscape considerably.

If you look at the 17th Beauplan maps I mentioned again, you will notice that the cartographer refers to the 'Ukrainian Cossak State'. It was the first democratically elected government in Europe and inspired many peoples seeking to free themselves of monarchies. The free peoples living in Ukraine were Ukrainian Cossaks. The serfs (enslaved peoples) were refered to by their ancient name Ruthenians (Rusyns). The people of the area now known as Moscow were MOSKALI and their state was MUSKOVY. These were THE terms used by Europeans at the time.

There were no 'Russians' in the 17th century according to the cartographer Beauplan and all other European nations who used his maps for political, diplomatic, trade, military, and other purposes. There were Ukrainian Cossaks and Ruthenians who lived in Ukraine, and Moskali in Muskovy (now Russia).

Also, there was a Ukrainian Republic established in 1918 which roughly approximates todays modern republic.

However, you are claiming Stalin created the concept of a modern Ukainian State. That means that the Ukrainian Cossak State in the 16th century, and then the Ukrainian National Republic of the 20 th Century were established by Stalin. This means that he lived over 400 years . Wow ! now I know why he always looked so tired.

Question:

Do you know what diet Stalin was on ? Oil of Olee move over. I could make you a rich man.

Please re-read my post above concerning the terms Ukraine, Ukrainian Cossaks, Ruthenians, (all in what is now Ukraine) and Moskali, and Muskovy (now in what is Russia). The term 'Russia' is a very late commer to the name game.

The actual term is 'ILE de France' which means 'ISLAND of France' ('Il' of course is the French language third person masculin pronon). This was NOT as you say the ancient term for the "district of Paris". You are close but not correct.

The 'nickname' for what is now modern Paris has it origins in what is now 'Ile de la Cite', an island which is located in the middle of the Seine river and surrounded by the modern 'Left' and 'Right' banks of the city.

The island is home to the Notre-Dame Cathedral and the ancient fortress of the French Royals (and one of my favorite restaurants). This very important Parisian 'island' with all it's political power was surrounded by 'France', hence the term the 'Island of France' or 'Ile de France'.

Today the expanded modern 'city of Paris' with all it's 20 districts on both banks are now called by the nickname 'Island of France' (Ile de France) so the term still exists and is commonly used. The modern analogy is that the city is like an island in the middle of the 'sea of France'. 'The original 'Ile de France' is now known as 'Isle de la Cite' (Island of the City).

The term 'THE Ukraine' is not correct.

We use the term 'The' to describe a united confederacy or union. For example we say:

The United States of America
The United Kindgdom

You can also use 'the' to describe a region. For example:

The Urals
The Great Plains

We do not use 'the' describe a single country which is not a confederacy, union, or region. For example;

Uganda
Uruguay

Ukraine is not a confederacy, union, or region, therefore it is not proper to use 'the'.

Hritzko

By the way, your English is very good. Did you live in the West or did you learn to write so well in Russia ?

Oh Pleeeaaaase !

Don't tell me that you have never seen a burning Trident (Tryzub) before. You just haven't been hagging around with the right Ukies.

Thanks for the post. I have read a good part of it and it is very much in keeping with my original post on the subject

'Pre988-autocephaltheism' is a form of nationalism to these people.

Here are some additional themes which I did not mention in my original post but came accross on the site:

(1) The group is centered in Zaporizha which is an old Cossak town in Greater Ukraine but has 'congregations' throughout the country. The independance of the the once mighty 'Ukrainian Cossak State' is repeating theme.

(2) They also seem to revere Taras Shevtchenko (the bard of Ukraine) who is mentioned often. He is seen being a 'prophet' who was sent to deliver them from the bondage of Muscovy (Russia).

(3) Anticommunism is another repeating theme. The group does not distinguish between the Communists who still hold power in this area and the Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate with which it is allied.

Overall their clear objectives are to free themselves from Muscovite bondage; religious and other. Separation from Muscovy and the establishment of a true independant nation and theism is their main goal.

QUESTION:

Did you notice that the site is sponsored by the government of the United States of America. Complete separation from Russia and then join NATO should be a good hint .

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko,

Sorry for the delay in answering but I have a good excuse. You asked:

As you can guess I was seeking for the elixir of Stalin�s immortality to help the humanity and get a million dollars. Certainly, it took a long while during which I was not able to write back. Unfortunately, so far the results are not obtained but it is obvious that the research work is really promising and any kind of sponsorship is welcome.

If you look at the 17th Beauplan maps I mentioned again, you will notice that the cartographer refers to the 'Ukrainian Cossak State'. It was the first democratically elected government in Europe and inspired many peoples seeking to free themselves of monarchies. The free peoples living in Ukraine were Ukrainian Cossaks. The serfs (enslaved peoples) were refered to by their ancient name Ruthenians (Rusyns). The people of the area now known as Moscow were MOSKALI and their state was MUSKOVY. These were THE terms used by Europeans at the time.[/QUOTE]

And what about His Grace Pavlo Skoropadsky, Hetman of all Ukraine? Was not he a monarch, insisting on the hereditary type of his Hetman authority and was not this kind of historical Cossack authority regarded by his adherents as royal power?

Thank you indeed for this historical passage. Sorry to say, I am hopeless at French (especially in its finest pronunciation) but something now gets clear for me. You are lucky man since you are a Parisian restaurant goer. I wish I were you.

By the way, your English is very good. Did you live in the West or did you learn to write so well in Russia ?

Alas! I never lived in the West and never have been to an anglophone country. I am afraid, after the recent extension of the EU an ordinary Russian hardly ever will be able to afford a European trip let alone visiting the USA with giving so called biometrical parameters, fingerprints, etc. to get the visa. All my poor English I learned by myself picking up as much as possible through reading books, listening to the BBC, and speaking to casual guests from the West.

Valerius

The first National Ukrainian Republic of 1918 was headed by Hetman (Ottoman) Simon Petlura. He was an ethnic Ukrainian and former colonel in the Russian Imperial army. He never claimed to have any royal heritage or Cossak ancestry. He used the title of 'Hetman' (Ukrainian Cossak leader) for symbolic reasons and had no intension of passing it on to his daughter.

About a year later (1919) the Germans who helped establish Petlura's provisional democratic National Republic wanted a military dictatorship to better coordinate the war effort against the red communists. They selected Pavlo Skoropadsky as the Hetman who as you correctly state was said to be of both 'Royal Kyivan Rus' and 'Ukrainian Cossak Hetmanate' heritage. Hetman Skoropadsky and his followers wanted to create a modern era 'Cossak Kyivan-Rus royal' hybrid state. The leader would use the title 'Hetman' (Ottoman) but it would be an inherited position. He wanted to ensure that his children inherited the title.

The first Ukrainian National Republic was put down by the communists and the territory became the new Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1920.

Hetman Pavlo Skoropadsky was forced to emigrate to Germany where he died at the end of WW2 in an allied bombing raid. The movement continued on in the diaspora for many years and still exists even today in the United States and Canada. His daughter never inherited the title and emigrated to the United States. I was told (can't confirm) that she is buried at the Ukrainian Autocepholous Orthodox Church's Cemetery at Bound Brooke, New Jersey, USA.

I would suggest that you look at the internet site for: the COUNCIL for INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION EXCHANGE (CIEE) 'Work & Travel' summer program for students who wish to visit the United States and work while they are here. You can visit and WORK here for 4 months and travel for an additional 3 weeks during the summer. It's commonly called a 'Student Work & Travel J1 visa'.

Hritzko

addendum - the Byzantine connection....

I forgot to metion that Holovni Ottoman ('Chief Kozak elder' or 'Chief General') Simon Petlura was also forced to flee Ukraine once the Russian Communists putdown the Republic. He emigrated to France where he was very instrumental with the 1921 establishment of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. He was mortaly wounded by an assassin in 1926 and later died in what is now the St Volodymyr's Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Paris' historical Latin Quarter. They still mark the exact spot where he died. He is buried at the famous Montparnasse cemetery.

Thirty years ago they upgraded his Parisian cemetery tombstone and shipped the original to St-Andrew's Ukrainian Orthodox Cemetery at Bound Brook, New Jersey where it is still on display. The person who made this happen was none other than Simon Petlura's nephew, the former Patriarch Mystyslav of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church USA (who is also buried at the New Jersey cemetery).

Hritzko

AHHH GEESSS! I thought Alex gave up and was posting again. Oh well.

Paganism is alive and well here in the United States and we have never been deprived of our faith.

God have mercy on us and through your grace, may we allow you, the Triune God, to freely shod our feet with your Gospel message. And may we grow in desire and hunger to take your Word to so many who are troubled in this great land that they might come to know you as their Lord and Saviour, the One True God, and turn from the wicked snares the devil has set up for them with his false gods.

Pani Rose

Valerius and Hritzko,

You are both dead wrong.

I've posted this before, but the Ukrainian desire to make Kyiv the center of Slavic culture in the region is a simple fabrication. It was, of course, Brno. Sts. Cyrill and Methodius were asked to come to the Moravian Empire, not Kyiv. St. Methodius was bishop of Brno, not Kyiv. Brno has been kept down by an international conspiracy of Latins, Ukrainians and Russians. Yeah. Yeah.

Did St. Methodius even visit Kyiv? Probably not. Why would he need to while being in such a beautiful and absolutely perfect place?

You silly Eastern Slavs. Always trying to rob the Western Slavs of their glory.

I'm still trying to figure out how the Ukrainians are going to declare the Balkan slavs being under Kiev. They weren't they were, uh, under Brno. Yeah. Yeah. They should be now and so should those silly pro-German Czechs. :rolleyes:

Dear Cizinec,

I was just repeating what the documentary stated. They were poking fun at how the Rusyn natives of Kyiv had only known 'human cut stone' as a durable building material. They whent out of their way to poke fun at how facinated the Rusyns were with modern brick making introduced by the Byzantine Empire, and which was according to the host as facinating as plastics where to most people a generation or two ago.

BTW, my cousin Andrij who lives in Lviv owns a brick factory and is facinated by what he does.... le plus ca change, le moins ca change....

And now about Christianity in Ukraine....

Christianity made it's way to Ukraine in the first century via two saints.

First, St-Andrew preached in Krym (Crimea) to the Greeks. Other historians say he made his way all the way up to Kyiv and preached to the Scithians.

Also, Pope Klement who was exhiled there later on in the century preached to both the Greeks and the 'Slavs found to the North' (ie: the Rusyns / Ruthenians). Many Christians view this as the first time that the Gospel was preached to the Slavic peoples of Rus-Ukraine.

The coat of arms for the Ruthenian Greek Catholic bishop for the Czech Exarchate has a 'Lamb standing on Krym' (Crimea) to symbolize Pope Klement's first time spreading of the Gospel to the Slavs in what is now Southern Ukraine. So even in the Czech Republic there are Christians who view St-Klement as being the first person to spead the Gospel to the Slavs of what is now Ukraine.

I do not mean to discount the divine work of the famous duo from what is now the Czech Republic. Most Ukrainians do recognize Sts Cyril and Methodius as being two of the most important foreign religious figures in their church history. Sts-Volodymyr and Olha will always be first even though they came later and they were not foreign born (Viking 'nobles' born in Ukraine). St-Andrew and Pope St-Klement who were also foreigners would probably be distant third, or even further down after St-Michael and St George and....who knows

The Ruthenian Greek Catholic Czech Exarchate coat of arms I mentioned above also has the letters 'K & M' to signify St Cyril (St- Kyrylo in Ruthenian hence the K instead of C) and Methodius. Therefore there can be little doubt about the importance of these two saints to the Ruthenians of the Carpathian mountains.

Hritzko