www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Religious Revivals in Eastern Europe

Well I have to say I envy you in some ways. I love Europe and have always wanted to travel there. Hopefully when Im older(Im 21 now) I'll be able to.

So far, Ive only been able to travel to St. Petersburg, Russia. That was an interesting experience.


Hmmmnn.....thats interesting, I read reports about a religious revival in Italy. Especially the sociological study done by Massimo Introvigne and Rodney Stark titled http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=ijrr
"Religious Competition and Revival in Italy: Exploring European Exceptionalism"

I suggest you read it, it may interest. They also note why churches are empty in Europe as opposed to say America and Africa. Namely that the church leaders are not actively seeking attendents. This is for several reasons, namely that they either enjoy a religious monopoly and/or state support. Basically the religious institutions in Europe have become corrupt and complacent.

This is quite different in America and Africa, where churches have to actively seek attendents to stay alive and stay ahead of major competition(either fellow Christians in America or Islam in Africa).

The churches in Europe(or at least the mainstream ones) are not offering the people anything worthwhile and so the people dont respond. Yet many non-mainstream Christian movements have done quite well in Europe, because they offer more vitality. The study shows that in Italy, for example, membership in groups like Opus Dei has risen.

Dr Geoffrey Hull wrote an interesting article about the same happening in France, where he states:

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1991/oct1991p12_711.html

"The traditionalist movement in France is today far more vital than 'mainstream' Catholicism, whether ultramontanist or liberal. Churches and chapels where the 'immemorial' Mass is offered by priests of the late Archbishop Lefebvre's Society of St Pills X or under the 1984 Indult are generally well-attended, whereas the more numerous parish churches and cathedrals given over to the Novus Ordo liturgy of Vatican II are more often than not close to empty, even in former bastions of religious practice like Brittany and Alsace."


Not only that, there have numerous reports also showing that during important holidays like Christmas, churches are actually filled in Europe. Large numbers of Europeans still travel to places like Lourdes and Fatima to find strength in their faith. Recordings of Gregorian chants and other sacred music are among the best selling in many parts of Europe as well.

There's far more complexity to the question than may appear at first sight. Im not saying that there isnt room for great improvement in Europe, there's plenty of work that needs to be done. What I am saying is that its not all doom and gloom as many try to say it is.


Ive already explained why that maybe so above. Plus theres also the question of different attitudes of the significance of church attendence. To an American Christian it may have more significance while to a European Christian it might not have as much.

For example, Charles Peguy was about as staunch a Catholic intellectual as there could be in early 20th century France. Yet he never attended mass in his life(largely because of his wife, who remained an atheist, but still).

Hi Kyivan Catholic,

Well, I envy YOU in that you went to St. Petersburg, Russia! I hear that it is awesome!

Although the studies you cite are encouraging, one only need to read what the Pope said about small Christian enclaves becoming the norm for Europe to understand that there really is a problem...I am not saying that it is all doom and gloom, but modern day Europe leaves much to be desired as far as Christianity goes. Especially if you compare it to the not so distant past and the traditional, family and church values which most Europeans espoused...then again, we have changed alot here too in these past four to five decades. Organized religion just doesn't mean alot to them or alot to many of us here either...this is the topic we are philosophizing about at my Bible Fellowship because Father hears it from young people and adults all the time.

In Christ,
Alice

To All,

I believe that 'Toqueville', when visiting this country in the first half of the 19th century in order to study the penal system, said that he was amazed at how religious the people here are. He contributed it to the fact that we didn't have an established religion.

Now I know that the French revolution was against the Catholic Church, (I have heard that by RC church leaders), and that one out of every two people guillotined was a priest. I know also that there was a great shortage of priests in France after that, and for that reason Saint Vianney, the Cure of Ars, was allowed to become a confessor since he did poorly in Latin.

I also know that before Vatican II, 90% of the Italians were considered to be in a state of 'excommunication'. And if we consider the wars, civil and otherwise, between the communists and fascists, especially in Spain; it doesn't show a very pretty picture of Christianity in Europe.

We know that in Portugal religion was being surpressed at the time of Fatima. So I'm surprised that anyone would consider the Europeans more devout than we are....even within our present 'secular' condition.

Also in Europe there is a definite line between politics and religion. They are shocked that God can even be mentioned or considered because they relate it to either a 'monarchy' or 'nationalism'. Democracy and it's politics is supposed to have no God.

Our nation here was built on totally different standards than those in Europe. We 'rebelled' against the 'annointed' King and by doing this we had to present to the world that we too had a 'divine' mission. It was for this reason all our founding fathers mentioned and re-mentioned God in every way they could. That though was not so in Europe. Once they got around to kicking the monarchy out, God went with it.

Now what I think happens to people when they go on a religious pilgrimage is that they tend to meet people with the same interests. Yet that is not Europe. If one has relatives, friends and/or acquaintances in any of those countries, they will realize that the concept of 'God' is very alien to them. Yet when it comes to horoscopes....

For heavens sake they've been massacring one another for the past 100 years.

Zenovia

Indeed it is! It has beautiful churches, and I was lucky enough to watch a religious service done at the exact same church that the Tsarivich Alexi was baptised in.

Well it depends on what the Holy Father specifically means by that. Usually when people talk about the crisis in Europe, they usually mean the low attendence rates in Europe as opposed to America. Yet there are several factors that can be attributed to that.

I firmly agree. Although I usually hate using this analogy: but I prefer to see the glass half full. But most people discussing this topic dont even see the glass half-empty, but rather a glass with only 3 drops of water left.


Well there is debate about that.

True. When you look at it, the faith has largely declined institutionally in Europe, but culturally it still has a hold there.

I sincerly doubt that is true. Do you have a source for this?

I still stand by my argument that Europeans have a higher quality of faith(especially intellectually) than Americans.

All those examples you cite are all interesting. Perhaps what it proves is that secularism in Europe is far more honest than its counter-part in America.

Here in America, secularist agendas are often dressed up as religious issues. Only a very few dare directly challenge Christianity, instead they often argue that either the faith needs to come into the 21st century or whatnot.

KC- You are forgetting that it is a tenet of the Americanist Church that Americans are the most devout, faith-filled people in the world. As a matter of faith, this is not up for debate.
[Actually, polls show West Africans are the most religious people on the planet, with practically 100% professing faith in God, and 82% attending church services weekly.]
-Daniel

Yeah thats quite true. Theres this notion that somehow God looks more fondly upon America than anyother nation, and that Jesus if given a chance wouldve been an American.

Dear Kyivan Catholic you quoted me as saying:

I also know that before Vatican II, 90% of the Italians were considered to be in a state of 'excommunication'.

You then answered:

I sincerly doubt that is true. Do you have a source for this?

I say:

I'm quite old. I was around then and recall reading it. Actually if I do recall correctly, Tuscani was totally communist after WWII, and I believe the government in Italy 'might' have been predominantly communist too.


You quoted me as saying:

So I'm surprised that anyone would consider the Europeans more devout than we are....even within our present 'secular' condition.

And you answered:

"I still stand by my argument that Europeans have a higher quality of faith(especially intellectually) than Americans."

I say:

Intellectualism doesn't matter as far as 'Grace' goes, and one's heart is really what it is all about.

You said:

All those examples you cite are all interesting. Perhaps what it proves is that secularism in Europe is far more honest than its counter-part in America.

I say:

I don't know. The Europeans will say, "well if there is a God", or "now really you went to school didn't you", or something like that, while we will say, "we believe in God", but in the meantime we will make His teachings what we want them to be".

At least it's politically correct here to believe, and if one believes they can attain God after death. Remember, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. That would be the denial of God. God cannot enter one and bring him to Him if He is not allowed to.

Zenovia

Yes, Americans believe in God, but then, as St Paul reminds us, so do the demons. At least they have the sense to tremble...
-Daniel

I find it a difficult concept to speak of "American Christianity". Christians in the United States have not always been so "Christian" to one another.

In most European nations, most people belonged to one particular Church (Spain was Catholic, England was Anglican, Sweden was Lutheran, etc.). This has never been the case in the United States. Also, here in the USA, Luther's "sola fide" and "sola scriptura" have taken on lives of their own in numerous fundamentalist and evangelical churches. When a "faith community" limits itself to a bad translation of the Bible and claims to perfectly interpret it, friction results and factions develop. This also does not lend itself well to Christian scholarship.

I would venture to say that in the USA, there are Orthodox and Catholics whose faith is as deep as those in the Old Countries, who are interested in scholarship and meditating upon the mysteries of the Trinity, who reflect upon the role of the Most Holy Mother of God, and who believe deeply that Jesus founded His Church to teach all nations, but did not explicitly tell anyone to write a book and then say all revelation is contained within. They will be harder to find because they don't make the noise of a Jerry Falwell or Pat Roberston nor do they attend the mega-churches that have pretty singing but seem more like entertainment than worship.

The big problem with this is that this kind of "worship" attracts many since it demands little in sacrifice and understanding and the entertainment value can be easily spread to many. The simplistic "Where is that in the Bible?" question has led many out of the Catholic Church in Latin America and into the JWs and fundamentalist churches.

This type of worship has not caught on so fast in Europe, for a variety of reasons.

Even the Catholic Church in the USA can not be fairly compared to the Catholic Church in Europe - or Latin America. In Latin America, as well as Florida, Texas, the Southwest and California before they became part of the US, there was massive missionary activity from the Jesuits, Franciscans and other Catholic clergy. The US has a Catholic Church - East and West - and an Orthodox Church - built by immigrants who came before there were sufficient numbers of clergy to serve them. These immigrants and their children built churches, schools, hospitals, orphanages, colleges and universities, and monasteries with their own money and hard work, as minorites in an unfamiliar land.

The United States and Canada are two of the very few nations on Earth that would have Catholic parishes of each of the 22 Particular Churches that together are the Catholic Church.

Since the USA was not colonized by a Catholic nation and not originally evangelized by Catholic clergy, the USA does not have the Saints' festivals that are common in many towns and cities in Europe - or even Latin America. Rarely does one see a procession, like El Se�or de Los Milagros that the Latino Catholic Community has each October in Pittsburgh. Most cities and towns in the US named for saints or other Catholic figures were founded long before they became part of the US. Thus, the USA does not have the deep Catholic traditions that a nation like, say Poland would have.

Having blabbed on, it is the wish of everyone on this board that the people of Eastern Europe, after so much suffering and repression, find their way back to God, in whatever Church - Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Latin Catholic - their patrimony and calling leads them to.

Im not calling you a liar, but I will have to ask for something to back this up. Could've been that you mis-read the statement, that the Pope excommunicated 90% of Italian politicians or something?

Dear Kyivan Catholic,

Actually, I don't think the Pope had anything to do with excommunications. I might be wrong...but it was quite common.

Zenovia

Dear Juan Diego you said:

"I find it a difficult concept to speak of 'American Christianity'. Christians in the United States have not always been so "Christian" to one another."

I say:

You know, if you would read up on history a little bit, and find out the attrocities that have occurred in 'ALL' the other countries in our world and during all the era's, maybe you wouldn't be so harsh on this country. Everything is relative you know.

For instance: I recall reading some pre-Civil letters about slavery by Northerners visiting the South. For one, they said that they would never have been so lenient with their own workers. The other thing is that the slaves themselves acknowledged that they had it 'very' easy compared to the Caribbean.

Maybe a good book or movie would be: America, America. I think it's by Elia Kazan. (I'm not sure). It's a good idea to find out exactly why so many people immigrated here.

As for being Christians, remember it is the Spanish attrocities on the Indians that are written about so eloquently nowadays.

Zenovia

Dear Juan Diego you said:

"The big problem with this is that this kind of "worship" attracts many since it demands little in sacrifice and understanding and the entertainment value can be easily spread to many."

I say:

Actually it's not entertainment value, but rather a Church adapting to the prevalent culture as it did in the Roman Empire. (We are a carry over from the predominantly pagan rites that existed). The music appeals to the senses of people that have been raised with it. Also a group of people gathering to worship God can affect one another. Remember, " wherever there are two or more gathered together in my name, I am among them".

That said, we know that it's an incomplete 'Church', but even those that have entered into the realm of 'God' through an incomplete method, is better than those that have never entered...no matter how complete their worship is. The important thing though, is that from that 'incomplete' Church, they can sometimes get a 'jump start' to the more 'complete' spirituality of a sacramental Church.

Hopefully, some day we will be able to appreciate what each other gives, and not only be concerned with how many the other is taking away....as if Christ is a commodity.

It's all in God's time!

Zenovia