www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Sad news for World Youth Day

Sorry, goose...

The young people will not have anything that they can teach the Church about doctrine. Heaven forbid they should try!

Also, you do seem to miss the point a bit...people who are addressing youth are addressing them as people worth emulating. Someone who is pro-abortion is not someone that is worth emulating. While they may be unaware of her views at the time, if they begin to respect her in one area, it will be too easy to look calmly on those less respectable aspects of her personality. No one who actively pursues an agenda that is anti-Church should ever address, with the sanction of the Church, the youth of that Church.

Gaudior, who dislikes condoning evil by giving it a speaker's fee.

Gaudior,

I'm afraid I'll respectfully and heartily disagree with you here, sir.

If in fact the lady from the Nederlands is not against abortion, that doesn't ruin her systemically.

I'm afraid you cast your lot too closely with those who demonise over one social issue, one that Americans in particular get all bothered about. Abortion has been a part of the human family since the beginning of time; it will always be with us. No, that does not make it nice nor does it mean that the practise thereof should be as wide spread as some think it to be.

Abortion has been and will remain a natural way to keep the human population in check. Just because a few, overly zealous religious types, who laud modern scientific and medical expertise (of a certain order), get all bothered about it does not mean it will go away. It won't.

As I have said a few times in a few places, when the Church does what it can do well before abortion becomes an option to the teenager in trouble, the Church will be exercising Her Motherly role. The punitive father does not reflect the Nature of Holy Mother Church.

Why I should have to say this on this forum, of all places, boggles the brain. One would think Eastern Catholics would understand this.

Can you seriously see Our Holy Theotokos bearing down on women who must choose abortion the way some here surely seem to bear down on women? I can't, not at all.

Perhaps that is indicative of how top heavy (can't be a reference to mammary glands can it?) Holy Mother Church is with male leadership.

Perhaps. grace and peace, wg

So, typically you won't answer the question. I think we share a common language even if we quaintly call that language English.

Dan L

Gaudior,

I fully agree. Goose is rather a bore. There are millions of Catholics who respect life in all of its aspects who would be a wonderful leader of youth at WYD. We don't need a person who support killing babies to lecture us in anything. For that matter, as I said, the issues are framed in an incredibly naive way. It's incredible that a woman of such naivite and such misguided views on abortion has access to a microphone.

Dan L

Goose,

I agree that as long as performing abortions remains feasible, legal or illegal, safe or not, they will continue until the Second Coming. However, abortion is by NO means a NATURAL thing. Keep such a woman away from a microphone and the crowd that will near a million of our youth and supporters.

Cyril

To my knowledge abortion has never been named the unpardonable sin.

I don't remember that you raised a question, CDL.

I'll say it again, this time to you, not Gaudior, some too quickly demonise otherwise good people over one over-publicised (by any standard) social issue.

WYD is in Europe, not America, thanks be to God. They are not as over-reactive on this particular issue on the Continent.

As I said, again, when the then Cardinal Ratzinger shut down a programme that a Catholic agency in Germany was doing to limit abortion, there were and still are Catholics there who lost respect for him (to put it nicely).

A Catholic priest friend of mine, from Bavaria, actually says he has not forgiven our current Pope for doing this. That strength of emotion from one surely finds resonance in others, friends. That one priest is not alone. I believe he speaks for many, not a few.

I don't expect some here to understand that.

If some can so easily demonise God's People over one hyper-sensitive social issue, it only stands to reason that the voice of other Catholics who disagree can be drowned out.

Where is the (power of) Salvation in this? I say there is none. Those with leadership in the Church need to esteem all God's people in the same way. To esteem one of God's children differently just because they do not stand against abortion in every circumstance is, in my opinion, of the evil one. I believe, with New Testament open, read and discerned, we can find words from the lips of the Church, presented as Our Lord Jesus Christ's Words, that speak a word against such an attitude. The Holy Gospel of St John 8.37ff blessing, wg

Cyril,

I'm sad to see you join forces with the other two I've addressed here just in the last few hours.

I don't see how you can say that abortion, as practised over the millenia, is not natural. Just because it has become sterilised in a hospital or health clinic setting, does not take away the fact that is is natural. When was it ever not natural. When did it cease to be natural.

If a woman gives birth with the full aid of every conceivable medical application, does that mean it is not natural? If you are of a certain age and from a certain size city or town, it is likely that you came into the world in a similar way, friend. I'd hate for you to think that your mother chose an unnatural way to get you here.

Safe, legal abortion is not unholy. Women risking their lives and their reproductive health trying to get abortions illegally is much less than holy. It is as simple as that. I would not hasten to add, because I don't think many things can be explained in such contrast, that it is almost a case of black and white.

In America, at least, I cannot imagine returning to pre-'73. Coat-hangers in cervixes does not a pretty picture paint.

As long as there is such a strong condemnatory voice coming from the Church, one that washes it's hands of anything approaching any practice of abortion for any reason, the Church will lose Her ability to reach millions, if not billions, of potential followers. The world knows this; the Church seems blind to it. blessing, wg

by the way, 'wg' will do when addressing me specifically, thank you. The adjective 'wild' is important to my user name here. It has special significance; to leave it off demeans. If one can demean women who abort or demean women who say that some abortion is acceptable in some circumstances, why should I be surprised that I, too, can be demeaned? God bless

Question. Poorly formulated. Poor indeed.

If we are to believe the blogs quoted, we may assume that the lady from the Nederlands is supportive (compassionate, understanding, empathic, sympathetic) of women for whom abortion has been their hard decision to take.

Women are humans. Abortion is, usually, a medical practice.

I support (people who have to choose to have) radio-therapy. Would I be banned from the WYD in your opinion?

I support Manchester United Football Club when they play other European teams in the Champions League, but do I think they're an altogether 'holy' group of people? Hardly.

Wild Goose said

EEEEEEEEEK a natural way ??

he also said

when man started to interfere

and again he said

hooray - he's correct - but did not finish it - it should read a medical practice to take life
and again he said
nope - not with that attitude - radio-therapy is given in order to hopefully deal with a specific problem with the intention of preserving life not terminating it

wg,

Your profile lists you as an ecumenical Western Christian. Are you Catholic? You seem to want to lecture us about what we should believe. I don't see a groundswell of support here for your pro-abortion rhetoric.

We know what our Church teaches about the sanctity of life and that is why many of us joined the Church. I realize that many have left the Church over such issues. While that saddens us, no amount of rhetoric is going to convince us that a "safe and legal" abortion is good for the baby.

Pope Benedict on Abortion (from _Truth and Tolerance_):

In the radical version of the Enlightenment's tendency, abortion appears to be one of the rights of freedom: a woman must be able to have total control over herself. She must have the freedom to bring a child into the world or to rid herself of it. She must be able to make decisions concerning herself, and nobody else�we are told�can impose upon her, from without, any ultimately binding norm. It is a matter of the right of self-determination. But, in an abortion, is the woman actually making a decision that concerns herself? Is she not in fact making a decision about someone else�deciding that this other person should be allowed no freedom, that the sphere of freedom�his life�should be taken away from him because it is in competition with her own freedom? And thus we should ask: What kind of a freedom is this that numbers among its rights that of abolishing someone else's freedom right from the start? [pages 245-246]

Our Lady's Slave of Love,

If you weren't posting here we might be convinced that something terrible had happened to the UK to make you all depart from decency. I'm glad you're here.

Wild Goose,

I doubt that it makes much sense to respond to you. I hope you someday surrender to Christ.

Dan Lauffer

BTW Doesn't anyone see how naive the Millenium group's ideas are? This is an area worth noting, don't you think?

Not a problem. Wild Goose it is.

Cyril

Let�s evaluate the unchristian statements by Wild Goose by changing the victim of violence from innocent children to others to see how his argument for the killing of children stands up:

And Wild Goose wants us to believe that he is a follower of Jesus Christ?

Dear Friends,

I don't think this issue which Wild Goose considers to be over demonized. will ever be dead until it is resolved by a shift to a culture of life priority and surely not even then as each generation must be taught anew. We do have hearts here! We care about the dignity of life for both mother and child. Speaking of...Also


We are aware that there can be circumstances which tug at our hearts and sympathies, but to my last breath I will defend this: "The end doesn't justify the means." Besides that:

Everything is not relative and morality is not evolving because of increased scientific knowledge and discoveries. There is a law written on the heart which can and, in this case, does surpass the laws of the land. And this is not for the determinent, but the enhancement of the common good of all.

It is NOT news to any here that abortion has been with us since the beginning...just as has the sin of murder been with us from the beginning.

In ancient Roman society the family had an efficient way to limit the population and eliminate unwanted babies-- especially girls. It was the right of the father.."can't remember the Latin name"...[possibly pater potestas ]to take the infant out and slaughter it. In a pagan society this was accepted and done as a regular and legitimate practice.

In our time now many say... "it is the right of the mother to choose to abort or have a child's life terminated." the implication is that we must protect the mother...or let her make the choice. Afterall, she might not have the support of a husband, and she will have to go though childbirth and she would have to suffer and have her life disrupted...all for the sake of a tiny innocent...a blob...a child without a name. Sort of a mater potestas in our time.

Such action can in no way be termed "natural" in the sense that it is the mother's right to chose what seems good for herself without due consideration for the life within her.

To accept as right or natural the taking of the life of an innocent child (human being) in order to enhance the well-being of the mother is to say this end justifies these means. And emotionally there is always a cost to the mother too. The means should be to give life...not death...to really enhance life...not destroy it.

My reflections on the matter do not go with prevailing and popular views in this present day culture. They remain as they were over forty years ago. But, I continue to pray for mothers of the unborn, for the unborn, and for all of us.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Porter...prayerfully.

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