www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Tomb of Saint Josaphat

Here is a photo of the tomb of Saint Josaphat, located in the Chapel of Saint Basil in Saint Peter's Basilica in the Vatican:

[Linked Image]

The body of Saint Josaphat is incorrupt, and was taken to the Vatican in order to safeguard the remains from desecration.

I had the privilege of seeing his body 2 months ago. What a blessing. Also of course we know there's a tomb of St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom and many other saints, including St. Andrew the Apostle and few other Apostles buried in the Vatican, can't remember which one.

But there are 8 Apostles buried in the City of Rome. How awesome is that!!!???

There are countless of relics in Rome, that you can't even begin to imagine! Including the stuff Jesus Himself used, such as the Holy Cross, the Last Supper table, the crown, nail, staircase to PPilate, etc.

I'd say that Rome is the 2nd holiest city in the world, just after Jerusalem.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

XB!

Plenty of relics, to be sure, but I'm not entirely sure that makes it the 2nd Holiest city after Jerusalem... most of the relics there are the result of Latin thievery and plunder after all.

In Domino,

Edward

The relics don't make Rome the 2nd holiest city, but certainly the BLOOD of martyers do!

Besides that you are so wrong about the "Latin theivery" of relics!!! Many of the stuff was brought to Rome from Emperor Constantine and his mother and many other emperors. Also is in result of Rome protecting holy things during the Crusades, the attack of Islam on Christianity.

And number 3, I've experienced something so extraordinary. I was alone in the very catacomb of St. Peter, yes that's below the crypt of the Church. I've experienced the Holy Spirit taking over me...as I was kneeling on the ground and leaning against the very wall of the catacombs. The Spirit have confirmed that Peter is INDEED the earthly head of the Church, the Prince of Apostles.

I have concluded that I don't give a hoot to what the Orthodox think about the Peterine ministry. Whether they like it or not, Peter and the successors of Peter are the earthly head of the Church, while we all know that Jesus is the Head of the Church. I have full confidence now, since the Holy Spirit Himself told me so.

I have learned that it is through the pope, the Church remains in unity and in one piece while the Orthodox and Protestants are just scattered all about divided.

The pope is the guardian of unity. It does NOT mean he's a dictator or a ruler of the Church.

So, it is because of the fact, Rome is indeed ROME of all ROMES (not Constantinople, Moscow, Antioch, EVER!). Constantinople can't be seen as the "New Rome" unless they're "wanna-bes." Rome is Rome and that's where the heart of the Church is (both Eastern and Western).

When I was in Rome, I was like "Awww wow!!! It's the Orthodox's major LOSS to not be in communion with Rome." One would never imagine how powerful the Orthodox will become if they're in communion with Rome.

It's no wonder Patriarch Alexi of Moscow is sooo overly terrified of Catholics, because he knows the greatness of the Catholic Church.

The fact many great relics in St. Peter's Church as well as all the major basilicas in Rome and in many Cathedrals throughout the city of Rome is a great testimony that all in the Christendom have greately entrusted in Rome and have seen Rome as the main Christian Center of the whole world.

God bless.

SPDundas
Proud to be Deaf BYZANTINE

Someone has been overdoing the alcohol...

And I'm sure everyone thinks Pope Alexancer VI was a wonderful example of what leadership should be like...

I think that was extremely rude and uncharitable on your part. I suggest you withdraw your statement.

On the second part of your post, no one makes any claims for the saintliness of Alexander VI. I am sure that we could run up a nice list of Patriarchs from around the Levant that would make appropriate travelling companions for you and Alexander VI.

Michael

I was taking issue with the previous poster's comments actually. Many of the relics were stolen, particularly after 1204. I don't really miss the Pope and I am sure that everything will be so better when he and his Church rejoins Communion with the Eastern Church.

As for corrupt Eastern Patriarchs, yes there were many but none claimed universal power of authority....

Dear SPDundas,

Yes, indeed, Rome is a very special and holy place. I was there briefly, and pray to make a pilgrimage back there to see all the holy churches and relics. I am Greek Orthodox, and although there will always be a historical and spiritual bond to what was once Constantinople, facts are facts. It is gone and taken over by Islam...thank God that all the holy relics of our common Christian patrimony have been saved in Rome.

Would you be so kind as to supply a list of churches to see these relics in, or is there perhaps a special 'religious' tour person one can contact when one visits for such a tour? EWTN often has a lovely series on the ancient churches of Rome, but I certainly wouldn't remember them off hand.

And Anton, yes, it would be a blessing for the Pope, Patriarch of Rome, to come into full communion with his brethren Eastern Patriarchs...we are both incomplete without each other. Prayer and an open, loving heart may accomplish this. Polemics, fear, cultural misunderstandings, triumphalism, dogmatic pride, etc. which so many of our brethren espouse will not.

Wishing you both many, many blessings,
In the Risen Christ,
Alice

AntonI:

As a student of history (did you pass your exams?), you presumably are well aware that the abuses of episcopal office characteristic of the Borgia years are rife within Orthodoxy. Moreover, "universal power of authority" has been exercised over the last millenium by EP's on a scale that dwarfs anything from Rome. Presumably, however, you discern that the Patriarch of Rome should be held to a higher standard: on this point I agree with you.

I think that your comment on "leadership" - an attrbute difficult to define - is an interesting one. You are probably in a better position to sift through legend, and misinformation to get to the reality of the personal impiety of Pope Alexander VI. But from the perspective of the public life, I like this remark of Orson Welles:

Dear Friends,

I was going to say that this might prove to be a touchy issue and we'd all should be on our best behaviour . . .

The relics of St Josaphat had a quite controversial past. Pope Paul VI had them brought to Rome for safe-keeping and to avoid further tension with the Orthodox.

The Basilian Fathers also had relics of a number of other Basilians who were killed, most notably by Peter the First, and tended to use these as a way of promoting the Unia.

Whenever we are feeling especially "triumphant" with respect to St Josaphat, let us remember that the Orthodox too have their martyr in the person of St Athanasius of Brest.

The Ihumen of the Brest Monastery, he criticized the use of gendarmes to enforce the Unia and, in 1648, following the first defeat of the Polish forces by Hetman Bohdan Khmelnitsky, he was arrested by the Poles and questioned by the Jesuits.

In the end, he was taken to a clearing in the woods and ordered to dig his own grave. He was then shot twice in the head and buried alive - we know this from the position of his fingers when his body was later exhumed.

He was glorified a saint and a Venerable Martyr and his feast, September 18 (mark your calendars everyone!) became popular not only with Orthodox, but with Catholics as well.

For this purpose, the Jesuits placed the feast of Josaphat on September 16 in an effort to divert energy and attention from St Athanasius' pilgrimage.

Met. Andrew Sheptytsky later restored the feast of St Josaphat to November 12/25.

The Orthodox in Ukraine venerate locally one Danilo Kushnir, an Orthodox Reader, who was forcibly taken out of his church during liturgical services and publicly murdered by Eastern Catholics.

So let's keep everything in balance, shall we?

Alex

Dear spdundas,

Well, the Holy Spirit has indicated to me that the Pope is the first among equals in the Church but that differences in doctrine between East and West have to be worked out in a Council before that primacy can be reactivated throughout the East once more.

Alex

Dear Edward and AntonI:

You can't say that every relic in Rome was the product of a theft from Constantinople.

Many great relics came over after the fall of the city, but the vast majority were in Rome already.

Saint Helena brought back numerous relics from her trip to the Holy Land.

These including pieces of the true cross, the holy nails, and even bushels of dirt excavated from Calvary.

It is also a well know fact that the Byzantine Emperors on a number of occasions sent emissaries to Rome to get relics for their churches.

You can't say that a church which was literally built upon the blood of it's early Saints, didn't have any relics before 1204.

As for Alexander VI, a priest friend of mine actually preached a sermon on his life.

He made the point that the pope considered himself to be a Renaissance prince and as such did not change any doctrine or moral discipline of the church.

The Borgias were certainly not a wholesome lot but one has to wonder if Julius II, who hated them with a passion, had anything to do with their current infamous reputation.

Julius II was the natural Papal successor, he served as a minister to his uncle Pope Sixtus, and only lost election after Rodrigo Borgia bribed the electors.

When Julius became Pope he eradicated anything related to the Borgias and even had new living quarters made in the Vatican so that he would not use the Borgia rooms.

defreitas

Dear Jose,

Yes, indeed!

And Julius II was himself a Pope known for his lewd sexual preferences and terrible habit of cursing people using the foulest of language and out loud . . .

His hatred of the Borgias was more along political, rather than any other, lines.

He wanted to canonize Savonarola as a way to formally solidifying the Church's condemnation of his Borgia victimizers.

In those days, Cardinals were made at whim by people who regularly failed to inform the pope.

One pope met a group of huntsmen coming into Rome who told them they were Cardinals. The pope didn't believe them and said he had never seen or heard of them before in his life!

After he got back to Rome, that pope found out that those men truly WERE cardinals!

On the other hand, Patriarchs of Constantinople regularly seemed to fall into heresy. Moscow itself deemed the Council of Florence as yet another example of the propensity of the Greeks to go the heretical way . . .

But Orthodox Russia itself was also known to take icons and relics from other Orthodox Churches (let's see, ah, the Ukrainian Church for one!).

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone, in other words . . .

And the fact is that Byzantine Emperors would often send relics as gifts to the West and also to the newly developing Orthodox Churches above the Black Sea.

Was the taking of the Relics of St Nicholas from Myra in Lycia to Bari by Italian merchants an act of theft?

The Orthodox Church has never historically thought so and there is an Orthodox Feast of the Translation of the Relics of St Nicholas for May 9/22.

This feast is one of three "national" Church Feasts in the Kyivan Church (along with the Feast of the Maccabees and the Holy Protection).

Alex

Sp,

I am glad you are proud of your Church but some of your language is SO trimphalistic and is one of the reasons some Orthodox people recoil from any relation at all with the Catholic Church. This sort of language "the greatness of the Catholic Church" etc is something not even Rome itself uses in relation to the Orthodox world these days. It reminds of something from the time of Pius IX.
You have zeal and God be praised for that but please think over some of that language (granted, some Orthodox go off the deep end too! But please, resist the urge to look at the world through "Rome-coloured" glasses. The world is bigger then that!!!

A topic for discussion...

Should the holy and incorrupt body of Saint Josaphat remain at the Vatican or should it be translated to a Byzantine Catholic church?

Should the relics be enshrined at Saint Sophia's Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in Rome or should they be enshrined in Ukraine such as St. George's in Lviv or the new UC cathedral that is being built in Kyiv?

Would the translation of the relics to a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic church lead to a greater veneration of Saint Josaphat among Byzantine Catholics?