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Dear Anastasios,

Yes, many, many Ukrainian Catholics would agree with you.

Do you like perogies?

Alex

Undoubtedly the photograph lends weight to the opinion that he was made bishop. (as the groups claims). My only point is that a real difference of opinion exists, rather than saying it is undisputed that he was ordained but that since it was invalid because it lacked Vatican authorization.

yes, as especially those made by my Slovak fiancee's mother!

anastasios

I used to dislike the highbacks and preferred the Greek style vestments, too. But over time the highbacks sorta grew on me. Not that I actually am wearing one that grew on me now...

Oh dear, I really need to get some classes...I've sunk to bad humour... At any rate, I like highbacks now...

Hello all again -

Regarding the high back dilemma . . . well I can only say I don't know much about whether it is Russian or Ukrainian, although I am sure that it's origins come from a period in History when neither a state known as Russia or Ukraine existed. The church of Muscovy came from Kyiv and perhaps the high back could be "Ukrainian" authentically as well. I know very few priests wear them in the Greek Catholic Churches from Rus (Ruthenia/Ukraina) today.

But then again that cannot itself be a good measure for accuracy since our Churches of today bear the strong effect of heavy Polonization and Magyarization.

Peace,
Ality

Hello all again -

Regarding the high back dilemma . . . well I can only say I don't know much about whether it is Russian or Ukrainian, although I am sure that it's origins come from a period in History when neither a state known as Russia or Ukraine existed. The church of Muscovy came from Kyiv and perhaps the high back could be "Ukrainian" authentically as well as is the three bar cross. I know very few priests wear them in the Greek Catholic Churches from Rus (Ruthenia/Ukraina) today.

But then again that cannot itself be a good measure for accuracy since our Churches of today bear the strong effect of heavy Polonization and Magyarization.

Peace,
Ality

Dear Anastasios,

Many happy years to you and your Slovak fiancee!!

Alex

Dear Ality,

I could not agree with you more.

The issue is really a pastoral one in the sense that a given parish may be used to Latinisms and would not be willing to give them up.

I remember meeting a Ukrainian Catholic priest, a former Orthodox priest, whose entire parish adopted many Latin practices.

He himself wore a rosary ring and loved the Stations of the Cross.

His parish began Perpetual Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and even the children took turns in Church for this, with the special prayerbooks that they have available (I think they are by St Alphonsus di Liguori).

I was going to say something, but didn't . . .

If the entire parish can be involved in the worship and praise of the Lord this way, can we protest too much?

Alex

I found an interesting article with icon on this site: http://www.uaoc.org/bishopgojdich.html
The article is entitled "MODERN DAY HERO
CARPATHO-UKRAINIAN BISHOP
PAVLO PETRO GOJDICH, OSBM, BEATIFIED
Victim of Communist Persecution, Slovak Forced Ethnic Assimilation and
Russian Orthodox Expansionism".
It might be worth a look see.
Blessings, Silouan

Dear Alex, Daniil et al:

First post since the meltdown. Its nice to be here again.

This is a very interesting thread you have here going. I don't think that anyone has yet fully answered the question where the high-back vestment fashion came from; I too would like to know.

I don't know when they became popular in Moscow but I can tell you they were "de rigueur" in the west for a few hundreds of years.

High-back copes were the rule rather than the exception in the Roman Church. If you look at the statues of the western Patriarchs in Bernini's "Cathedra Petri" in Rome you will notice that they are wearing high-back vestments.

Considering the history of Western Ukraine I would not be surprised if the style was first introduced from the west via Galicia and the Greek Catholic Church.

My two cents.

P.S.
High-backs are the most beautiful.

defreitas

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: defreitas ]

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: defreitas ]

The title of this article is at best a distortion of the truth and implies things that were not true.

Blessed Pavel Gojdic was the ultimate un-PC Byzantine Catholic: he identified himself neither as a Slovak nor as a Ukrainian, he spent an hour every day adoring the Blessed Sacrament, and he did not accept that the Orthodox were part of the true Church -- his communion with Rome and the Vicar of Christ was something for which he paid ultimately with his life.

He also was not a Russophobe.

Why would Ukrainian Orthodox consider this "heroic"?

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Dear RichC,

I think this is a case of the Ukrainians presenting Bl. Bishop Paul in a certain light.

I myself grew up with a strong veneration of Bishop Paul.

It was only on this Forum that I found out that the version of his life that I had always believed to be true might not be . . .

Something similar occurs when Ukrainians also present some of their bishops as great Ukrainian heroes when they were really defending the Catholic faith - period.

What is truly amazing about this article is that we have the Ukrainian Orthodox praising a Greek Catholic martyr, Ukrainian or not.

It is the first I've ever seen of such. Most Orthodox I've known have regarded our New Martyrs as loyal Papalists and not as people defending their Ukrainian nation or identity at all.

Alex

Dear Alex,

I don't mean to pick open the scab on the "New Skete" topic, but that particular group of Ukrainian Orthodox (UAOC-Sobornopravna) seems to believe, unlike many Orthodox but probably like New Skete, that the various Catholic Churches along with the Orthodox Churches together make up the one Church...

Not that there's anything wrong with that...!

Dear RichC,

More power to them . . .

New Skete is both Orthodox and ecumenical and I feel right at home with them - and with their puppies!! Awwww ...

Alex

Dear Kurt,
When the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints(CCS) announced
the list of those Byzantine and Latin Catholics to be beatified during the Holy Father�s trip to
Ukraine, Blessed Leonid's name was not included among the list
of those who were ordained bishops. Instead his bio as published by
L'Osservatore Romano lists him as "Fr." Leonid Feodorov.
Of the books and articles that I have read on the life of Blessed
Leonid Feodorov, it's mentioned that he was secretly ordained as
bishop by Metropolitan Sheptitsky in Petrograd/St. Petersburg.
I was disappointed that Blessed Leonid was not recognized by the
CCS as a bishop, but I thought it may have been due to lack of
supporting evidence.
Yet, when reading the life of Blessed Bishop Simeon Lukach in the
same L'Osservatore Romano article, I was surprised to see that his bio
states "it is suspected that [Blessed Bishop Hryhory Khomyshyn]
secretly ordained him a bishop."

Thus I am left with the following questions:
If the benefit of the doubt was given to Blessed Bishop Simeon,
then why wasn't that courtesy given to Blessed Exarch Leonid,
especially in light of the photograph?
Wouldn't the photo alone suffice as proof that Blessed Leonid was
ordained as a bishop? Why was this overlooked? I am sure those in
charge of collecting info for Exarch Leonid's cause for canonization
must have been aware of this photograph.
I would hate for his being orained bishop to be omitted from Blessed
Exarch Leonid's official biography at the CSC.

God bless you,
griego catolico