www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Tomb of Saint Josaphat

Having a familial connection to that particular cathedral, my view is "No thanks!". I have no problem with those relics remaining in Rome, specifically in St. Peter's.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Dear Kobzar,

What is your view on St Josaphat?

Alex

Alex,

Actually, when I think of Bob Orthoman and compare him to a Pillar of Orthodoxy my thoughts at hearing the word �pillar� race immediately to the wonderful pillar-like �barbeque bell tower� at his parish. I can envision the bell ringers turning the kielbasi on the spit as they ring the bells.

Although I did not see it until this morning, I had not thought Incognitus� post as �unnecessary provocation�. I saw it as very �tongue-in-cheek� dry humor (and not insulting) since it would quite obvious that there are many St. Josaphats on the liturgical calendar (not to mention that Incognitus did not identify which St. Josaphat he was speaking about).

Admin

The only thing I was trying to provoke was smiles. The book I referred to does not tell us which Saint Josaphat is intended - but I've always taken it for granted that "Josaphat" in this case is a mis-spelling of Ioasaph of Bilhorod.

I'm still waiting for these books to list Saint Andrew Bobola and Saint Pius X.

Incognitus

Dear Alex,

Personally I am neither 'pro' nor 'con' re: St. Josaphat. He, along with St. Athanasius, was a product of his times. My biggest problem is how he is 'used' by parties on both sides. I feel it is safest if his relics remain at St. Peter's.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Centuries ago, the Catholic Church made its own ecumenical gesture when it approved the veneration of Saint Sergius of Radonezh.

He is officially listed in the Roman Martyrology.
What that means is that on Sept. 25, a Roman-rite Mass can be celebrated for a Russian Orthodox saint!!!

Unfortunately, Sept. 25 falls this year on a Sunday, and in the Roman-rite, a Mass for Saint Sergius cannot be used.

However, if Eucharistic Prayer III is used in Sunday Mass, then the priest is at liberty to mention Saint Sergius in the section commemorating the saint of the day.

So if you know any Roman Catholic priests, encourage them to mention Saint Sergius if they use Eucharistic Prayer III for Sunday Mass on Sept. 25.

griego

Dear Administrator,

Yes, but we all LOVE Bob Orthoman, don't we?

(Actually, I can see him as a model for an icon-painter doing an image of St Mark of Ephesus with that scroll saying, "I surmise the witnesses of the Western teachers to be corrupted!").

As for St Josaphat, that IS a sore point with many Orthodox, given the history of trying to use that historical figure for forced conversions to Catholicism - as you and our friend Incognitus both know.

In fact, the negative feelings in that regard are what have led the Orthodox to prefer the name "Joasaph" rather than "Josaphat" - even though the two are interchangeable.

If you don't believe me, the next time you are cantoring in an Orthodox parish or else visiting, see what reaction you'll get when you start distributing prayer leaflets with the image of a certain "St Josaphat" on it . . .

If there are shouts of "There's a freakin' Uniate here tryin' to convert us," you can immediately say "Well, I thought it was St Josaphat, the Metropolitan of Moscow . . . so sorry . . ."

Well, if you don't think Incognitus did anything wrong, perhaps you should consider rewarding him in some way for at least getting Bob Orthoman to make his presence felt here . . . I know you share with me the exhilaration (along with djs) at having him enrich us with his good humour!

Alex

Dear Griego,

Actually, the cult of St Sergius was approved by Rome in 1904 in response to a petition by Met. Andrew Sheptytsky to include all the Russian Saints for veneration in the Russian Catholic calendar.

Rome answered in the positive, but only asked that those saints whose "anti-Roman" reputation was of a markedly pronounced nature be expunged from the calendar.

Rome also ordered that St Pontius Pilate be expunged from the Ethiopian calendar for the Ethiopian and Eritrean Catholic churches.

I hate it when that happens!

Alex

Alex writes "As for St Josaphat, that IS a sore point with many Orthodox, given the history of trying to use that historical figure for forced conversions to Catholicism - as you and our friend Incognitus both know."

I'm not really aware of attempts to use Saint Josaphat for forced conversions to Catholicism - might I request some specific examples of such attempts?

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Fr. Ireney Nazarko OSBM mentions a few of these in his book on Kyivan Metropolitans and so does the Orthodox Met. Ilarion Ohienko in his books on the history of the Ukrainian Church.

As Andrij-Kobzar said, St Josaphat was used in diverse ways to promote the spread of Catholicism in western Ukraine and Belarus under the Polish kings - it gave them more amunition.

People were forced into the Unia in diverse ways in hopes of them eventually taking the "final step" and become "true" Latin Catholics.

Even the "filioque" in the Greek-Catholic Churches was forcibly imposed by gendarmes - which is why the term "Istynno" in place of "I Syna" developed at one point.

The Basilian Order was particularly adept at spearheading "Unia" campaigns with the Relics of St Josaphat - something that really got the Orthodox upset.

This was, as I understand, a large part of the reason why Pope Paul VI simply had his Relics brought to Rome - for safekeeping and out of the reach of the zealous Basilian missionaries for the Unia (referred to by St Alexis Toth in his diaries as "jerks").

Some quarters also tended to portray St Josaphat very much as the same Latinized cleric as the Basilians et al.

In fact, St Josaphat was personally very much AGAINST Latinizations of any kind and even opposed the introduction of the Carmelite Order in the Kyivan Metropolia in union with Rome.

It was certainly not his fault that his memory and cult were reinterpreted and used in this manner in various campaigns serving to incline people to join the Unia and others to promote ECism.

This is why St Josaphat conjures up all sorts of nasty images for the Orthodox - it is not that they necessarily "hate" Greek Catholics, but that they don't regard Josaphat as someone worthy of the honours of a saint - and again this is based on legends of his life and some very real manipulations of his cult by Jesuits and Basilians afterwards.

So this is why your joking about the matter can most definitely rub our Orthodox friends, and Bob Orthoman, the wrong way!

You are obviously someone who didn't grow up in Eastern Europe

Alex

Just a note of absolute inconsequence:

This is one of the best discussions of priestly sainted Josaphat that I have seen in the ten or twelve years that I have been subjecting my poor old worn out soul to such things!!...

Many thanks to you all...mary

NB:Do not equate BEST with BALANCED...they are not equivalents.

The Good as revealed to us by the Father is hardly ever what most of us neurotic sinners would view as being "balanced" or just.

So think of me speaking here of fair faces and fine words all directed to the Good!

Dear Mary,

Yes, the figure of St Josaphat is quite emotional with us Ukies.

I had an Orthodox music teacher who taught me to play on the piano.

After five years, I had had enough though . . .

During one of our lessons, in my parents' home, she eyed an icon of St Josaphat nearby and had a comment about it. I'll let you guess whether it was positive or negative!

Well, I wasn't going to stand for such . . . blasphemy!! And in the presence of one so young and impressionable!

I reported her at once to my parents and kicked up such a zealous fuss that . . . lo and behold my piano lessons with her came to an abrupt halt!

How dare she . . .

It has also been the topic of, shall we say, lively discussions at events, including Ukrainian Catholic priests who themselves have issued the opinion that the whole matter is best dropped.

When I asked one EC priest at my mother's home what about the fact that an Orthodox mob attacked Josaphat etc. - he said, "Well, that happened because he so got under their skin . . ."

And during a Litia service in my old parish, St Josaphat was mentioned along with the other Saints and, at that point, the elderly woman next to me murmured out loud, "What, do we still commemorate that scoundrel?!"

Ah, yes . . .

Alex

I've heard this mentioned a few times on the forum, but is there a reference for this?

I'm thinking it slightly odd, as this indicates the 'Istynno' addition happened after the Unia, yet the Old Believers insist on that word in the Creed - and their model of liturgical usage surely dates back to a period before the Unia, and they never lived in areas where this sort of forcible 'i syna'-isation was enforced.

Dear Alex,
In the immortal words of W. C. Fields, the problem is not ignorance, the problem is that so many folks know so many things that ain't so! I asked for examples of "forced conversions to Catholicism" and you tell me that gendarmes were used to force the Uniates to recite the Filioque, whereupon they Orthodox added "istinno" instead. Do try again; as Edward has just correctly remarked, the pre-Niconian text reads і в Духа Святаго Господа истиннаго . . . (Cf. Old Orthodox Prayer Book page. 110). There were no gendarmes in Muscovy at the time trying to force the Filioque on anybody.

I seldom speak in defense of the Basilians but I'ld love to know how they could abuse the relics of Saint Josaphat in the manner you suggest (and, for that matter, just how the relics of a dead man could force anyone to do anything), since the relics were concealed inside a wall to keep them from confiscation - they were later kept at Saint Barbara's in Vienna before being transferred to Rome.
If you've got some real examples of the use of force coupled with the relics of Saint Josaphat to compel people to join the Unia, you have my attention.

Incognitus

Dear Edward,

That is a great point - the Old Believer's version of the "Hail Mary" is also the same as the UGCC has it, but that doesn't mean much . . .

The "istynno" in the early Unia days was meant as a way of satisfying the gendarmerie, as I understand it.

Eugene Ivankiw from Chicago once wrote an article on this matter in their "Visnyk" - but that was years ago.

I've also seen this in an article in Orthodox Word, but wouldn't know where to look for it.

Also, the Ukrainian Orthodox Met. Ilarion Ohienko mentioned this in one of his works - but which one? That is the $64,000 question.

But I also don't know if you'll get $64,000 if you answer it either . . .

Alex