|
1 members (AnonymousMan115),
445
guests, and
131
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,535
Posts417,725
Members6,187
| |
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
To be serious for a moment, "Independent Catholic" is a contradiction in terms, and its use implies that someone can re-invent the Catholic Church, structuring his Church to suit himself. Neither the Orthodox nor the Catholics would give that idea house-room. Abouna, Bless, Father. Far be it from me to be less than serious but ... it's the nomenclature which they apply to themselves and is typically bandied-about. One could, I suppose, term them faux-Catholics, pseudo-Catholics, or some other variation thereof, but there are so many issues to argue in life, that I've concluded one must pick and choose. This didn't make my "choose" list that week  Spelling: the plural of ecclesia is ecclesiae. 
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1 |
A Niall, a chara,
Beannacht D� ort igcona�!
The real problem arises from the wish of people to use titles or descriptions of themselves which are, to put it kindly, "confusing". If I were to proclaim myself Archbishop of Armagh, Sacred Archimandrite of Iona, Patriarch of Tara and the Western Lands and Co-Arb of Saint Patrick, I would not accomplish much beyond confirming the suspicions of many (including some of my friends!) that I'm a hopeless megalomaniac. Such a person as that string of titles asserts does not exist and has never existed.
There are people, most of whom have no followers to speak of, who assert similarly fantastic titles and seem to spend much of their time either re-consecrating each other or excommunicating each other (possibly both in the same service). Peter Anson described some of them at great and boring length (the London Tablet titled their review of his book "Bishops Galore!" and ended the review with the highly pertinent question of why anyone would be bothered to write it [answer: to make money; the book sold out rapidly and is in consistent high demand - secondhand copies cost incredible prices when they can be found at all]).
Now we do take seriously the titles of such hierarchs as Pope Benedict XVI, Patriarch Gregory III, Patriarch Bartholomew - and for that matter King Juan Carlos of Spain. One wants, therefore, a means of making it politely clear that the pretensions of the megalomaniacs, such as "Pope Pius XIII", who was last seen in Montana, I believe, are not to be taken seriously.
Any suggestions? If not, I shall return to my efforts to resolve the problems in the Caribbean Exarchate of the Patriarchate of Tara.
Father Serge
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
Originally posted by ProCatholico:
In any case I want you and all to know that I seek no validation from anyone here, for what I do or do not do. But I can definately see where you arrived at that conclusion. PC, My apologies for it seeming to be a conclusion - I was more wondering Originally posted by ProCatholico: As you may or may not know, I am a third year theology student. I've invested much of my time on a "independent study semester" on the subject of catholicity and its manifestations. I didn't know and I'm fascinated. I'd love to see the results (thesis, whatever) that results and if I can offer any assistance, please do not hesitate to ask. I will PM you a couple of names that might be excellent resources for such a study. Originally posted by ProCatholico: Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
...for Utrecht...in time, their orders and succession will suffer invalidity as female hierarchs participate in ordinations, presbyteral or episcopal. A very valid point. Originally posted by Irish Melkite:
To the casual observer, the typology [Anglican Catholic] would include Archbishop Hepworth�s Traditional Anglican Communion, myriad High Church and/or Anglo-Catholic congregations within the historic Anglican Communion, the Anglican Catholic Church (Province of Christ the King under Archbishop Robert Sherwood Morse), the Charismatic Episcopal Church (which, name aside, does not have origins in the Anglican or Episcopal Churches), and others. Just a side note, regarding my reference to the CEC - I just discovered that, in the past few months, this body has become embroiled in major internal turmoil that has included the withdrawal of several bishops (including Bishop Zampino) and priests, together with their constituent faithful. Originally posted by ProCatholico:
I had in mind, SSPX and the host of independent traditional chapels that are [b]not sedevacantists.
I included them as a group precisely because they are in irregular status but more importantly they are "Catholic" but with disciplinary differences.[/b] I'd agree, generally, altho the independent traditional chapels that are not ultimately somehow, someway linked to one or the other of those in either the "independent" or "Old Catholic-type" ecclesiae are relatively few over time. Originally posted by ProCatholico:
I mean to include here, PNCC, the ICAN (which youve previously mentioned) and the Aglipayan Church. They are not strictly speaking, Old Catholics, hence my seperation of them into a distinct category. Actually, until the formal break over ordination of women, the PNCC was the sole body outside Europe that Utrecht recognized as Old Catholic and the PNCC so-termed itself in some documents. Originally posted by ProCatholico:
I did not suggest this! I only told the poster that 'vagante' is pejorative as no groups that I have listed would appreciate the term. It is not correct to use the term towards all groups not in union with Rome. The hundreds of bizare sects that meet in garages and have dubious apostolic succession, ordain women, etc are not part of my conception in this entire schema mind you. But they would be considered vagante. We agree and I apologize for misinterpreting your comment. However, I would include the true vagante, only because the practice of collecting "more is better, and even more is even more better" episcopal lines has a bad habit of supporting their never-ending hope that "somewhere in there is a good line". Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
If I were to proclaim myself Archbishop of Armagh, Sacred Archimandrite of Iona, Patriarch of Tara and the Western Lands and Co-Arb of Saint Patrick, I would not accomplish much beyond confirming the suspicions of many (including some of my friends!) that I'm a hopeless megalomaniac. Such a person as that string of titles asserts does not exist and has never existed. Abouna, You're absolutely correct. Any serious student of hierarchical styling knows that you are actually Catholicos of Achill, Archimandrite of the Blaskets, Hereditary Chaplain to The C�ileachar, Mitred Missionary to the Palatines, and Exarch of Ben Bulben of the Ukrainians. Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
Peter Anson described some of them at great and boring length (the London Tablet titled their review of his book "Bishops Galore!" and ended the review with the highly pertinent question of why anyone would be bothered to write it [answer: to make money; the book sold out rapidly and is in consistent high demand - secondhand copies cost incredible prices when they can be found at all]). has recently been reprinted, giving me some hope of being able to afford a copy of my very own with which to be lulled into somnolence Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
Any suggestions? If not, I shall return to my efforts to resolve the problems in the Caribbean Exarchate of the Patriarchate of Tara. I shall give it some thought. Meanwhile, should Your Holiness grant me a boon, I feel that my ancestors of blessed memory would be much impressed were I to be named Proto-Presbyter of Malin Head. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564 Likes: 1 |
Proto-Presbyter of Malin Head? I'm sure that can be arranged.
On the other hand, if you would like some secular titles, the "Emperor" in Rome whose coronation photograph appears in Anson, dispenses titles for a small consideration. When you attend the "Emperor's" court, I'm told that if some courtier or noble is particularly high in the Imperial favor, the "Emperor" takes a long golden spoon, places a delectable chocolate thereupon, and administers this into the mouth of the favored courtier. Doesn't that sound like fun?
I have not met the "Emperor", nor have I attended his court, but then, I'm rather shy and retiring by nature.
Protopresbyter of Malin Head - that calls for a consultation (on the astral plane, naturally) with Saint Brendan.
le gach beannacht,
Fr. Serge
|
|
|
|
|
